Next Skill Balance

I have to agree with what Sabre has to say about monks working together... not just as a tank and smiter, but there's also support builds that other monks and ele's and rangers and rits and (get the point?) can use to join in and **work together** ... besides the 600's gotta be paying close attention to what they're doing or they become an instant corpse... that doesn't sound invincible to me...

*sigh* whatever happens, people who actually like to figure out how skills work and how to get builds to synergize will figure out a new way to farm stuff... I love working out and tweaking skill combinations! That's what I LOVE about this game... the immense complexity and CHOICE we have as players when it comes to actually playing the game!

holleratchalater,

Mr. Fellfoot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trvwVoLtqVI&feature=sub

I'll just leave this here (remove wow talk and insert GW related things in place.)

This is a complete joke right? Nerfing the way that a lot of people enjoy playing, and have been playing for years? Why does PVE need to ever be nerfed? How does another player farming for ecto in the UW affect other peoples game?

A long time ago, Gaile Gray specifically stated that Anet had no problem with people playing PVE solo, why is it suddenly a problem now and what exactly is nerfing SF and 600 / Smite going to accomplish other than losing many more players from the game?

This makes me glad now that I didnt join the test crewe.

How about fixing skills that still need fixing first? Like for example Intensity, Withdraw Hexes, Shatter Storm and plenty of others?

Because it effects things other than soloing. Great example would be SoO. Perhaps trying to read the other SF threads would help.

How does it affect other options in any way shape or form, people can grab 8 people and do balanced way at any time, if the farm way builds are nerfed there will be NO uptick in these groups meaning that they are irrelevant to each-others play-style.

haha, cute video.
I copy the random guy from the top of the comment list for all the noobs here to learn:
"agreed, absolutely agreed. granted, I get ticked when blizz hands me a nerf, but everyone does. I just make 1 comment in guild chat about how it sucks, then I shut up and move on."

Well, he has training, wow is p2p so there is support with regular skill updates. No chance that crap like this goes on for years.

Sorry, but me, or anyone else playing the game solo does not in any way affect you or anyone else in anyway whatsoever.

I have played this game since day one and have been completely dedicated to solo play for a very long time, so please dont bother trying to convince me that playing solo is bad for this game in any way because there is absolutely nothing that I can do to affect your enjoyment of the game by entering a PVE instance entirely on my own, be it solo or with AI, or duo monk.

yeah they don't even realize it's the one thing that sets this game apart from the rift raff they want the game to become

this game hasnt been able to be balanced since factions was released. add in the nightfall skills made things worse and EoTN PvE only skills just put the icing on the cake. there is and has been too many skills in the game. this dying game is nearing 5 years old. constantly trying to change the way people play isnt going to help. you want to improve the game, fix the mobs and how they spawn. add a little randomness to their spawns. everyone has been playing long enough and knows what will spawn and how many will be there. some of the past so called skill balances and seeing how the enemy mobs have been affected makes me think the balances were done by throwing a dart at a dart board with the choices while not taking in account how will it affect the whole game. they are better off undoing past nerfs or changes and letting it be a free for all(not like anything done in PvE affects anyone else being an instanced world) and dont cry about the economy, there hasnt been one for a long time. or just shutting down the servers and admitting they have screwed up in the past and have no clue how to fix it.

some of us are wondering if its possible to also buff some of the less used skills such as the elites like Shadow Shroud, Shroud Of Silence, and Etc. to better give availability to customize builds. some of the elites aren't even really touched at all in the builds we see today. and what about the availability on joining HA groups. those of us new are still having trouble forming groups of our own to even have a chance to get our own ranks up. is it possible to separate certain ranked groups into different districts that way each of us can get up at our own pace to fight similar skill rankings? like the old hero battles?

anet will never figure out how to balance their skills. dota is the best example of MANY different skills that are actually balanced. and you wanna know why? plenty of updates, plenty of people testing but it's balanced at the cost at the cost of versatility. GW has versatility but no balance.

The way I see it is, there is a group of PvE farmers who don't want the nerf because then they couldn't increase their e-peen with their vast amount of gold and ecto. Then there are the trolls, they don't really care about the nerfs but want it because it will piss of the other people. Another group i'd call white knights that seem challenged to give the mobs a fighting chance against us players.
Don't get wrong, I don't think that making a game where you can easily solo everything is going to grab anyones attention for more then 2 weeks. Some here even want to be able to clear every area in 5 min. Then all that's left is PvP, which will then be filled with everyone of which there are some who barely mastered the skill to move around in the game (looks at kurzick AB the last few weeks).

I want the game to challenge me but i still want to be able the play casually and not have to play 3 hours to clear 1 area. I like GW because you can go afk at anytime and there is no pressure on clearing areas so you can have some decent gear. That's why I welcome nerfs to some extent. I agree that SF and 600 needs to be toned down, but they shouldn't smiter boon it. It should still be runnable but not on a ridiculously scale like now. SF needs to be hit harder then 600 though, 600 are still getting hit and can overaggro, even with Spellbreaker a slight mistake kills you. SF can just theoretically clear any area that doesn't have touching skills or strong healing.

I have a friends who just started playing, he's been playing other games like WoW, and he's obsessed with making money. Every piece of crap that i'd merc without a second glance he asks' "is this worth something?" or "I just got this 1st year minipet, how much can i sell it for" and he's never PvPed or even got further then kodash bazar(he's only got NF)! The reason i'm using this example is because money doesn't really have place in this game. All you need is max armor some runes and some weapons and you can go HM or PvP. Just playing the game gives you these things. Unlike other games you need money to buy better gear, skills, grind, etc.

I met a player once who had several characters hoarding nothing but stacks of ecto. All he did was farm UW to get more and more ectos to do nothing but fill up his inventory with them.

But regardless of what you think of this, how is it a problem to you? The guy can play the game however he likes, if he enjoyed farming ecto, at least he was still playing the game. Nerf solo farming and you will end up losing quite a significant number of players who have been dedicated to GW for a very long time who for whatever reason enjoy that kind of solo farming gameplay.

The obvious solution has been for years now to improve party play and make it more rewarding. This has been done a little with end chests, but tbh, the rewards I got after a few FoW clears seemed so pointless for so much time spent. Another suggestion was to increase rewards when playing in a group, something like simply providing a lot more gold based on number of human players, but as the game currently works, there is no incentive to play with other people.

Also on the topic of how long it takes to clear areas, I do not want everything to be completeable in 5 minutes, but at the same time having to spend several hours on end just to vanquish one area is pathetic, frustrating, and not in anyway enjoyable. One option I would have liked would have been to be able to save your progress through an instance, and to be able to log out and log back in at any time and resume from wherever you left off. Without such a feature, I can hardly bother to waste several hours grinding vanquishes, but I would be happy to do so with such a 'save game' feature.

Of course I mean to save the progress while using H/H, not with other players.

WoW is different in that no matter how much they nerf any particular skill, with enough grinding for gears or enough high level players anything can still be totally destroyed without that much of an effort.

WoW Gears + Leveling = GW Shadow Form + PvE skills.

Also...Blizzard update their game so that there's less chance of classes being completely ignored, or endgame areas that are completely worthless (dungeons) or ridiculously difficult (DoA) to the average players.....

Nothing anyone does affects anyone's game.

The problem with this, of course, opens the door for allowing nearly anything in the game. "Just ignoring it" isn't too much of a solution in this case. The stance is full of holes.

The reason farming in itself is a bit concerning when it comes to the game mechanics is that it's a very small number of players going against and taking out full groups. When one skillbar can dominate several, than something in that equation - be it the farming build it self or the enemies it's going against - is broken.

Things are not so simple as "just ignoring it". People really underestimate how many gain satisfaction from accomplishing challenging tasks based off of the game's standards and not their own. If this was the case difficulty settings would've died with Wolfenstein 3D (from what I can ascertain it was the Atari that did this first, though). Instead we would see no difficulty settings and everything being really easy for newcoming players, and those who wanted a challenge simply had to ignore certain aspects of the game: dodging health packs, ammo upgrades, etc.

The difference here, though, is the gear progression. You may indeed be able to achieve SF + PvE skills power for the first raid tier, but then the next update comes along and you have to go through it once again.

I'd like to know how us "rich" farmers have priced items out of the game for the average player. The cost of your max/elite armour is fixed, obs armour is the most expensive in the game and before the UW update was obtainable at the fraction of the cost that it used to. The vast majority of weapons are obtainable for next to nothing, infact we get so many we give more away more than we trade, i can still count on one hand how many weapons i have sold after 4 years and yet have given hundreds away. Heck the bonus mission pack has some of the coolest skins in the game, all you have to do is a quick easy "solo" mission and you can take you pick of which you want. I have storage accounts full of perfect weapons and mods, black/white dyes, ecto/shards etc that i hold onto for no real reason (i always keep stuff on my main acc limited), i have no reason for money, i farm for fun (that said i do expect some rewards for my efforts) i just simply have no interest sitting in town spamming WTS all day. I'd rather enjoy playing the game with my guildies or on my own. I work shifts so solo farming is perfect for me. I do still get a buzz when i get a perfect set of zodiac daggers even if i have no real need for em, chuck em on a hero, storage em, give away, merch em w/e. If i want a BDS or an Obs Edge i'll farm my own thanks, and if i've already got one and get another drop i'll chuck it on a hero. The only thing i ever buy in trade are mats. And get this, i know lots of people just like me.

Our guild had an officer auction last month, basically buy the services of an officer for an evening, i bought one for over half a million (money that goes back into the prize fund for games and activities), recognising some players couldn't compete we also had a raffle where you could win them for a 1k ticket. We often have lotteries with prizes like a full set of obs armour, armbraces, rare mini's etc where lots of players benefit who would otherwise never see that kind of money. The officer auction was the start of our guilds 4th birthday celebrations, which are continuing through to the new year with all kinds of games and prizes, millions worth, all donated by us greedy farmers.

As for the high prices of high end items with 0.05% or less chance of dropping well what do you expect. If an item has 0.05% chance of dropping then 0.05% of people should be able to afford it.

It does seem a little coincidental that "some" of the people in this thread bashing these builds just happen to be heavily active in the trading part of the forum. Is it possible that it is they who are wanting to manipulate prices so that they can make more money for themselves. Less farming, less goods, higher prices. Who is playing the game the way it should be more or less?

I'm seriously tempted, if this update ends up being as bad as feared (don't forget its not just SF/600 up for a bashing here, other prof will get hit too) to start a campaign to fight back. Lets see how you sellers like it when us farmers flood the market with all the stuff we've got stashed. Think the stuff all the part time farmers sell on is causing you problems, lets see what us farmers can do to the market if we want.

You aren't everyone.

SoO is not possible unless you have a large friends list with people who'd be up to it or if it's the zaishen bounty. Nobody attempts to look for people because they know all they'll find is sins.

And neither are You

Your statement is no more speculative than his, or do you sit in town gauging the number of balanced teams v sin v 600/smite/qz teams for SoO or any other area? How busy was the SoO run before Sin and 600 teams found their way there? I suspect not very busy at all, you do a few balanced runs at a few hours each, get to the end chest and are rewarded with sweet fa and say forget this i'm off to do somet else.

No one attempts it because the area is difficult and the loot is crap for the time required. There are barely any sin groups doing the area so don't even try to spin it to blame SF as the cause of dungeons being empty. The loot is so horrible that most sins don't even want to touch it even if they can. The only people "doing" the dungeons are 600/smite runners and people buying runs.

Why not take it all the way and blame SF for Vizunah Squares being empty too. I don't want to attempt to look for people in Vizunah Squares because all I would find is sins. *cough*

roj/discord hero HB monk and a tank...2 players 6 hero's tears thru it.

SF = god mode you can farm whatever place u like basically its really annoying to see.
600 / smite was good back in the days for UW but now its also considered god mode imo since its used in a lot of other places.

I think ANEt has tried alot of different things to avoid a direct SF nerf. They might still avoid it but I doubt it. Bottom line, since the summer they have been changing the skill itself, and other similar support skills in an attempt to make it less powerful. None of this has worked, SCs still happen and actually are faster today than ever. Some SCs are more difficult than others but they still occur. If you really want to blame anyone for the end of 600/smite and SF you only have yourself, the farmers, to blame. You took something that was fun but gimmicky and abused, you showed no self control and abused, abused and abused now you force ANETs hand and they take it away. The same thing happened with ursan. You have to realize anet is a video game company, they make money when more ppl play the game. Having a game where you can blow through elite areas, get all your cool weapons, and max out the amount of gold in your storage in months is BAD for buisness because you lose interest because you've done it all.

The underworld update is just more proof of how imbalanced SF is period. For a good group now UW takes slightly longer because there is more stuff that has to be killed. Adding the new monsters didn't stop SC's it just punished balanced groups more and made the SC's 15 minutes longer for the good players and nearly impossible for the average pugger.

It does when ANet screws the rest of the game in a failed attempt to limit those activities, and it also does when EVERYONE solos (it's supposed to be a multi-player game!)

And therein lays the rub. ANET is screwing it up, not soloer's per say. If ANET had done due diligence on skill and game design. Then maybe there wouldn't be areas that are soloable. As far as being multiplayer, it's supposed to be, but the sheer awfulness of some pug players and its longevity led this game to its current state. This game is old, and the quantity of good players diminishes each day.

Funny, I didn't see you say that. And even if you did- bs. Still haven't proven that I'm not neutral.

Kid, the 600 discussion is a dead horse. No one's going to explain it to you all over again because you were born yesterday.
Your wall of text with which you're trying to sound all intelligent and save your face is cute and all but instead of "thinking" which isn't something that's working out for you, you could just use COMMON SENSE. When someone says "nerf SF" I know what he means and even tho he didn't give any reasons of his own there are still plenty of reasons to do so, listed by others here and in thousands of other threads.
Don't get all upset because people refuse to "discuss" with you why they think Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around.
Oh, and more. No one's going to repeat himself for you because, well... who are you?

Oh you've got to be kidding me. People making threats over... over a skill nerf. LOLOLOL. Tell me you're not serious? Threatening to leave, threatening to 'fight back' (OH NOES), threatening to take your guild/alliance... blah blah blah. I wish I had no other worries, so I could spend my days fretting over a bloody skill nerf.

these guys don't get it.. soloing is what keeps alot of us playing the game

and guys like this are what I'm talking about.. I guess if it's not on the wiki, it can't exist XD

well sorry cuilan, this is one of the dungeons I solo in under 45 minutes without cons and have gotten everything out of fendi's chest, true you get alot of suntouched staffs and fendi greens, but when you get a r9 golden hammer or a bds it's why we play the game.. it's a satisfaction you will never experience.. being the guy who adds these items to the game (bds has 6% drop rate).. or like bogus said most of the time they end up in storage or use them for hero's

the drop rate is pretty low on certain chest farms.. the voltaic spear is pretty bad.. I can farm that chest once every 11 minutes solo in hm and only seen it drop once- pugs farm it at the very best 3 times an hour including party setup.. and they use a sf sin to run it while the rest damage.. what's going to happen to that group- I can tell you, they probably won't be around anymore

and us greedy farmers, I can't even count the number of times I've went to ascalon and kamadan and given away perfect gold rare to semi-rare weapons to lowbies.. the game is different things to different people- you take away the monk especially.. that's what got most of us got hooked before you even entered the game.. the way the skills interacted- you take your hp divide by 5 or 10- find a way to reduce the damage and walaa you have your tank..

it's something you don't see in other games.. without farming I can see alot of peeps leaving, there will be nothing to do that we haven't already seen

you guys who don't farm and then talk like.. oh this is how I play- I'm all weak, why shouldn't everyone play like me.. your late to the game, solo speed farming has been going on since the game came out.. it's not something new

ok me personaly think that sf should not be nerfed, i see people here saying that anet is a company looking for best interest, they are a gaming company and they make money for what they do, ppl say sf is easy, and it is, its a fast way to make money.. ppl say anet is doing it cuz ppl make money real fast, do speed clears and so on, they can do everything in a few months and quit the game.. well i think thats wrong. ppl say sf takes the sport out of gw, well this is what i think, everyone has a chance to make a perma sin, and im sure 90% of you guys have one, this game isnt for fun anymore, no game is just play and have fun, everything is a competition, online play xbox 360 ps3, everything and everyone playes to be richer and better than everyone else, or at least 90% of us do, nothing stays the same theres always changes on how ppl play, nerfing sf and 600/smite will infact loose more ppl than they think. i for once do not use sf all the time, but its a nice way to make money. SF IS FOR FARMING ONLY, it is usless in normal pve and pvp, who wants to take the time and use SF in everyday pve, it would suck. every prof has there strong points, sins is the ability to farm, war,derves has the ability to farm, and run faster than sins, ive seen wars solo farm uw, faster than sins as well as raptors.. there is no its just a multiplayer game anymore, its a challenge, everygame out there is a challenge to see who is better and faster, only old school players dont agree, its just like your grandparents, they dont agree but its just the way it is, everyone has a change to have a perma, 600/smite for fast farming.. have them nerf these idc, but watch out many ppl quit playing

The recently buffed Henchmen say 'Hi Fay! We disagree. Anet loves letting people play on their own with us'.

So why nerf playing without them, or without anyone else?

Ya I agree. What does it matter if we SOLO FaRM. I bought this game so I should be able to play it how I want. Abet don't say. You have to play in a group. And plus. We only solo to farm. All activities. Missions. Doungons,unless your farming then is done in groups. So I which case. SOLO=FARMING. MULTIPLAYER=EVERYTHING ELSE. You didn't buy my game or make the rules. And what does it matter if 10% is solo and 90% group. It's our choice. It's the way we play Anet should be happy they made a good game we all like to play and nothing needs to be nerfed when it comes to farming cuz what makes this game good is the chance to make your own decitions with out having a million restrictions. If you wanna perma then perma. If you don't then don't. But all of you would be lyres if you say that a perma sin has never helped you out before

Leave 600 smite alone

hah ever heard of sinway. look on pvxwiki SoO runs are done the majority are sins. and its so fast they dont care if they get crap drops its the thoguht of a possibility of getting such things as the BDS that they care about. but regardless of the sins useing it
its SoO speedclear and uses teams

But then in just a few days we get a new content update
and your toon gets overhauled cause the balance is overdue
now you Might as well delete it your new toon just cant compete and
as the cycle is repeated a new flavor is debuted
the forums once again are all a-flamin heads are spinnin
from these wars but Anet's grinnin thanks for playin drive on through

This pretty much summarizes everything.

Quite the compelling argument. But, lack of support or reasoning could be seen as a possible downfall.

Do you ask people to defend their choice in favorite color, too? This isn't a debate club. Maybe he just likes 600/smite.

Exactly - and that's why we have henchies and heroes.

I don't think any game should be made to be broken, though.

Yes.
It isn't?
Very well, then. I just hope he doesn't expect anyone to do anything more than just ignore his post.

I could make a very lame joke here about you not being able to understand written text. Would that make you feel better? No, so I'm not going to do it. So next time, don't do it yourself either, especially when irony gets you in the end. My previous post contains a simple metaphoric example, that shows exactly why it's not "bs", but in fact, logic. I'll post the original message below, just to show you that I'm not messing around. Clicking the arrow next to my nickname will take you directly to it.

On the subject of being neutral, you still haven't proven that you were, which you could have, by posting your own proper arguments as mentioned in my previous post. If you had done that, I wouldn't have called you prejudiced.

One Ad Hominem after another... and another.... and another... and another. The irony of this is that Ad Hominem fallacies are a lovely example of the subject's own inability to engage in serious discussion. Here's some common sense for you: Making fun of people in a discussion, calling them all sorts of things, and not actually making any valuable contributions is bad. I said this before, and I just said it again. Hopefully you won't ignore the message this time.

Do you seriously think that I haven't read any of the arguments posted by other users in this thread, or was unable to come up with any other myself? This, again, is not the point. Of course I have read them. However, some I agree with, some I don't agree with. In the end, I post my own opinion, backed up by my own arguments. If I happen to agree with someone's arguments to a serious extent, I quote them for it. How am I supposed to know which arguments you agree with if you don't post or quote them? I could of course, guess them, and make assumptions. Like the assumption that I made that you were posting out of revenge for the nerfing of your favorite farming skill. You didn't like that. If you don't like me assuming things, don't make me do so.

I'm glad to inform you that I'm not upset, but thank you for your compassion. It is very much appreciated because we all know you are such an important figure who we all care so much about. Me and my friends all love you and want your babies. Luckily, I'm quite used to dealing with people who have the disability to have a normal discussion, and instead resort to more insulting manners in order to sound strong. Reading posts on forums like these and replying to them brings nothing new.

tl, dr: Stop insulting and making fun of people, and next time first post why you think something. It saves a lot of drama.

YES I heard of all the sinway dungeon clears! That's why you need to read my post, where I said "even most sin groups don't want to touch the areas because the drops are so bad". 600/smite is BY FAR the best way to clear dungeons AND get BDS only because they can RUN people for extra money. Just because its possible for sins doesn't mean that everyone is doing it. If it wasn't for the extra running income, its better to actually solo farm raptor for the gold and BUY the damn chest item outright, just because the drop rate is so low.

The main argument is because 600/smite is fun and I thought this needed no explenation. I guess most players only think about themselves so I'll rephrase: Leave 600/smite alone because it's fun for a lot of players including myself.

PvE, should be about fun and giggles within a certain frame of 'balance'. 600/smite didn't cross that line imo. You need more than one player and it takes skill (yeah I know, a lot of you guys are the sh1t, but this is gw guru so don't fool yourself).

PvP is where you'll find a more balanced environment and it is designed for competition and that sorta fun.