Next Skill Balance
animal fighter
guild wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by lishi
Isn't this caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills?
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Its caused by the necessity to grind PvE titles that are character based each time the Meta changes to accomodate the new Meta.
So if one guy's main is his Moebius Sin who has say all the PvE titles (Asura, Lightbringer, etc.) maxed, and the skills balance makes this combo obsolete for example, then he has to start a new character, and do all the same titles again, except this time its a Warrior or Monk.
That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time.
What we have received is the exact opposite, which no amount of apple polishing and doublespeak can cover up. Its almost as if ANet and its krewes are playing on private servers that don't interact with the general gaming populace of GW, and never encounter the same problems as the rest of us.
To wit, I would guess that none of them have yet tried to get a Deep PUG going in HM and successfully complete it. Or a full DoA clear. Regardless of skill balancing these areas are dead.
The game's problem is not skill balance, its poor area design, poor class implementation and a horribly designed reward/risk ratio. Until the general ANet apologists realize this, and ANet and its krewes finally admit to it being a problem, nothing will ever get fixed and the cycle of meta builds and speedclearing will continue. I 100% guarantee that skill balancing will not eliminate the problem of people trying to beat GW's content in the fastest time possible, unless ANet has some sort of retroviral bio-weapon capable of reverse engineering humanity's inherent greed and laziness in an easy to use airburst dispensing unit.
Gennadios
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time.
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Ergo, we wouldn't really know that the Test Krewe is out of touch until we actually see a product of their labor.
You're dead on in regards to the char specific PvE skills though. I was hoping against hope that the HoM "upgrade" would actually be meaningful (I still remember how ANet basically admitted that the current system "Discourages players from using more than one character".)
Too bad that "upgrade" turned out to just be smoke, mirrors, and bull*** nonesense.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Gennadios
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the test krewe set up a mere few months ago, and there has yet to be a skill balance released?
Ergo, we wouldn't really know that the Test Krewe is out of touch until we actually see a product of their labor. You're dead on in regards to the char specific PvE skills though. I was hoping against hope that the HoM "upgrade" would actually be meaningful (I still remember how ANet basically admitted that the current system "Discourages players from using more than one character".) Too bad that "upgrade" turned out to just be smoke, mirrors, and bull*** nonesense. |
I'm sure that the Krewe isn't given access to source code and are unable to adjust gameworld parameters, basically they're just a glorified bunch of beta testers for a game that's been out for nearly five years, the problem is that ANet is even working in this direction.
ANet has decided its more important to continue trying to balance skills in PvE and introduce overpriced cosmetic fluff, instead of fixing the areas and the reward/risk ratio that is the root cause of the whole mess.
If that's not poor direction, I don't know what is.
lishi
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
No.
Its caused by the necessity to grind PvE titles that are character based each time the Meta changes to accomodate the new Meta. So if one guy's main is his Moebius Sin who has say all the PvE titles (Asura, Lightbringer, etc.) maxed, and the skills balance makes this combo obsolete for example, then he has to start a new character, and do all the same titles again, except this time its a Warrior or Monk. That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time. What we have received is the exact opposite, which no amount of apple polishing and doublespeak can cover up. Its almost as if ANet and its krewes are playing on private servers that don't interact with the general gaming populace of GW, and never encounter the same problems as the rest of us. To wit, I would guess that none of them have yet tried to get a Deep PUG going in HM and successfully complete it. Or a full DoA clear. Regardless of skill balancing these areas are dead. The game's problem is not skill balance, its poor area design, poor class implementation and a horribly designed reward/risk ratio. Until the general ANet apologists realize this, and ANet and its krewes finally admit to it being a problem, nothing will ever get fixed and the cycle of meta builds and speedclearing will continue. I 100% guarantee that skill balancing will not eliminate the problem of people trying to beat GW's content in the fastest time possible, unless ANet has some sort of retroviral bio-weapon capable of reverse engineering humanity's inherent greed and laziness in an easy to use airburst dispensing unit. |
So yes, the problem is because of unbalance.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by lishi
The PvE skill are hardly necessary to complete the game, we all grind them because they are very overpowered, if they were balanced (or just a little better) then normal skills we won't be having this conversation now.
So yes, the problem is because of unbalance. |
What are you smoking, and can I have some?
R_Frost
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
I will also say this: if ArenaNet kills off 600-based builds, I really hope they raise the hero limit or allow henchmen in elite areas.
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the current state of the game the changes of hero limit increase or henchies in elite areas arent going to hurt it game anymore then has already been done with the introduction of heros, poor skill balances and pve only skills. the economy has been screwed for a very long time so its not like it can be hurt anymore. the only reason for money now is to get that set of armor your missing or special weapon skin you may have always wanted, or farm your titles. the game can be played for a long time with very little gold.
Axeman002
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Originally Posted by R_Frost
600 isnt over powered compared to perma-sf.
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lishi
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
So you're contending that the reason areas like DoA, the Deep and Warren, many dungeons and fully most of Prophecies are completely empty is because of PvE skill balance?
What are you smoking, and can I have some? |
Weren't we speaking of why we can't just change to one char to another like we used to before the introduction of those PvE skills?
Why those meta always include some pve skill? because we like the name? or because they are extremely overpowered?
Without them all we need to adapt (or better to develop) the new meta will just few k and maybe a elite tome.
lishi
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Originally Posted by Axeman002
WRONG ! ! ! ! !......its vastly greater than perma-SF...only reason u think this is because more people find it easier..600 is more powerful but u got one more skill to click so people use the easier build...if SF was remoived 600 would be back at the top of 'easiest' farms.
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Gennadios
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Originally Posted by R_Frost
600 isnt over powered compared to perma-sf.
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As much as the nerf will suck for me personally, it IS over powered, and the game WILL be better off if it's killed.
The only thing I'm worried about is how the hell I'm going to afford enough lockpicks for those damn chest-based titles after 600's gone.
Zehnchu
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Originally Posted by Gennadios
It has the capacity to clear some dungeons single-handedly (and alot more dungeons with the aid of a permasin.)
As much as the nerf will suck for me personally, it IS over powered, and the game WILL be better off if it's killed. The only thing I'm worried about is how the hell I'm going to afford enough lockpicks for those damn chest-based titles after 600's gone. |
shoyon456
The other problem is, though, that I have yet to clear the new Dhuum UW in a normal balanced group. The few times we came close we spent ALOT of time doing it.
There needs to be some incentive/buff/time necessary decrease for balance groups. I'm not saying do this literally, but structure areas in ways that would be conducive to the average player/group and discriminate "speed clearing."
Because such a drastic change would require much too much work and effort on a dying game, all they can do is kill the symptom of how elite areas are structured (permasin). I just want proof they won't f GW2 over in the same manner.
There needs to be some incentive/buff/time necessary decrease for balance groups. I'm not saying do this literally, but structure areas in ways that would be conducive to the average player/group and discriminate "speed clearing."
Because such a drastic change would require much too much work and effort on a dying game, all they can do is kill the symptom of how elite areas are structured (permasin). I just want proof they won't f GW2 over in the same manner.
Sifow Chan
SF aside, I wouldn't mind seeing nerfs to 600/smite and even "Save Yourselves!" (And I main a Paragon) but that would have to come with buffs to other things such as more faction from AB so faction speed clears would be less important and buffs to other vast majority of Paragon skills. It's stupid that Paragons, Dervs and most Mesmers all rely on the same builds for PvE. Imbagon for Paragon, Wounding Strike for Dervs in PvE and PvP because all other elites suck in comparison, Visions of Regret Mesmers. Hell, even Rits are only running SoS now because of the spirit buffs. Stop buffing Warriors and buff some other professions for a change. We get it, you like Warriors more...well screw them for a change, they always get the attention. While we're talking about Wars, Defy Pain seriously needs a nerfed PvP version. I'd also like to see a Nerfed PvP version of RoJ. I think some Ele earth and water spells need some work as well; how many +armor enchants do they need? Rangers are fine, Necromancers are fine and Sins...well I don't have time to list all the problems there.
As much as I want to say kill Sins, because of the huge unbalance they caused GW1, that would contradict my feelings that all 10 professions can start from the beginning and be balanced together.
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
I just want proof they won't f GW2 over in the same manner.
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Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
I actually didn't thought of that....thanks for bringing it up. A lot of players only have ONE character that are fully developed (thanks grindy titles for that), so those players don't have the luxury of instantly switching to another character to do the next "meta" OR balanced.
I know plenty of people that only had all the necessary skill on the assassin, and a bunch of other characters that don't even have all the missions done. |
(and before the "BUT PEE VEE EEE SKILLS NEED TITLE GRIND" people come in...you can get rank 5-6 fairly easily from simply completing the game, and for the most part, that is by far all you need to use the skills...the extra second or two isn't as big of deal as you make out)
Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan
SF aside, I wouldn't mind seeing nerfs to 600/smite and even "Save Yourselves!" (And I main a Paragon) but that would have to come with buffs to other things such as more faction from AB so faction speed clears would be less important and buffs to other vast majority of Paragon skills. It's stupid that Paragons, Dervs and most Mesmers all rely on the same builds for PvE. Imbagon for Paragon, Wounding Strike for Dervs in PvE and PvP because all other elites suck in comparison, Visions of Regret Mesmers. Hell, even Rits are only running SoS now because of the spirit buffs. Stop buffing Warriors and buff some other professions for a change. We get it, you like Warriors more...well screw them for a change, they always get the attention. While we're talking about Wars, Defy Pain seriously needs a nerfed PvP version. I'd also like to see a Nerfed PvP version of RoJ. I think some Ele earth and water spells need some work as well; how many +armor enchants do they need? Rangers are fine, Necromancers are fine and Sins...well I don't have time to list all the problems there.
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Dervish can pump out more damage, and can actually use Warrior utility BETTER than a Warrior due to better energy regen/mangement (the utility being interrupts, stance removal, and to a lesser extent, DW). Warrior's extra armor is largely insignificant because well, unless you are doing tank n' spank, the monsters won't be targeting the warrior anyway. Which brings me to Paragons...which do nearly as much damage as a warrior, keep up SY! easier, have far more utility, and are ranged.
FyrFytr998
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
Which brings me to Paragons...which do nearly as much damage as a warrior, keep up SY! easier, have far more utility, and are ranged.
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Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
Agreed. Paragons are for those players that wished they could ranged attack with their Wammo's back in the day. I say combine the classes for GW2, lol.
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shoyon456
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
Dervish can pump out more damage, and can actually use Warrior utility BETTER than a Warrior due to better energy regen/mangement (the utility being interrupts, stance removal, and to a lesser extent, DW). Warrior's extra armor is largely insignificant because well, unless you are doing tank n' spank, the monsters won't be targeting the warrior anyway.
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Fox Mulder
Discord is not a farming build since it takes 2 players & 6 heroes, or 8 players of course. You even need a caller w/ a specific set of skills! My friend & I could not enter most HM areas w/o this skill. We play every day & have used discord to max EOTN titles, do zaishen missions & bounties. Anet chose to remove XTH for z-keys. How can I get them if discord is nerfed? We are not close to maxing treasure hunter or the lucky title track so this is DEFINATELY not farming! I will quit GW if there is a significant nerf to discord & I will not buy GW2.
Owik Gall
I'm expecting the finished changes be complete at the first thursday of Jan update. There should really be no excuse for anet to lag on the SF and other farming issues they've mentioned any further, especially with the test krewe. I know after watching anet devs in the pax booth interview that they are very hesitant of doing anything to SF, but they have got to let that go by doing something in said update.
Aside from the obvious, tactics made more warrior friendly would be nice. If it would make a warrior tanking with tactics anymore that decent than it is now, I'd be a happy camper. That, and it would be nice to use tactics shield as a warrior after so long. Anet will have to be delicate with this, though. Paragons have greater use for this attribute than any other and if this gets a huge buff than imagine how the paragon class will take it. Yeah. Although it's not even a sure thing that the tactics attribute will be affected in the next update.
Answers and more will be revealed in the next update.
Aside from the obvious, tactics made more warrior friendly would be nice. If it would make a warrior tanking with tactics anymore that decent than it is now, I'd be a happy camper. That, and it would be nice to use tactics shield as a warrior after so long. Anet will have to be delicate with this, though. Paragons have greater use for this attribute than any other and if this gets a huge buff than imagine how the paragon class will take it. Yeah. Although it's not even a sure thing that the tactics attribute will be affected in the next update.
Answers and more will be revealed in the next update.
Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Uh, you're kidding right? All you need is Warrior's Endurance and a Scythe. Compare Mysticism and Strength. As a main derv I will be the first to tell you that Warrior out modes the derv completely. Not only can the warrior do even MORE damage than the derv with Warrior's endurance and because of strength, but with a higher AL and the many very melee-oriented str skills like Bulls, warrior is not the one that needs the buff.
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Thanks for proving my point.
Malician
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
Ah, so a Warrior imitating a Dervish is stronger than a Warrior being a Warrior.
Thanks for proving my point. |
"... Not only can the warrior do even MORE damage than the derv"
(Emphasis mine). He was comparing a warrior to a dervish, not other warrior builds.
FengShuiDove
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
-snip-
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Even primary Dervishes will likely admit to having a pretty weak profession, by comparison.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by upier
The problem is that due to the way the game has evolved, A.Net now needs to consider a WHOLE bunch of factors before changing something. And sometimes leaving a problem alone will be better for the game than changing it for the sake of changing it.
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If they want to make it less character based, then being able to invite characters for a mission who normally hadn't progressed that far in the storyline would be a much more advancing goal.
Doesn't mean that I disagree with lowering title requirements, though - and *that* doesn't mean I'm advocating for lowering them, either.
FyrFytr998
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Originally Posted by FengShuiDove
Uhhhh... you must be the only person on these boards who actually believes that Dervs can outdamage Warriors in any respect. Sins also have better physical damage, and even Rangers handle several physical weapons better than Dervs.
Even primary Dervishes will likely admit to having a pretty weak profession, by comparison. |
Jensy
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Originally Posted by Gennadios
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the test krewe set up a mere few months ago, and there has yet to be a skill balance released?
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Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Jensy
Wrong. We were notified that we were selected in late October, but did not actually get to work until early December.
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I mean, what are they all doing over there, sitting around the hookah?
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by Owik Gall
Paragons have greater use for this attribute than any other and if this gets a huge buff than imagine how the paragon class will take it.
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Jensy
Running a game, maybe? >_> It's silly to assume that they had NOTHING else to do, so I'm not going to even go there. The fact of the matter is, we're working on things now. That's all anyone needs to concern themselves with. This thread has been so derailed, I'm wondering why it's still open...
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Jensy
Running a game, maybe? >_> It's silly to assume that they had NOTHING else to do, so I'm not going to even go there. The fact of the matter is, we're working on things now. That's all anyone needs to concern themselves with. This thread has been so derailed, I'm wondering why it's still open...
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I've worked in the networking industry, and its largely automated, especially when you're talking large server farms. The only time people need to get involved is when there is maintenance, repairs or upgrades such as new content.
As the "new content" consists of two costumes, I'll assume they stuck the janitor on that, my gf who's a novice at 3d modeling could whip those up in a week.
Its silly to assume they had anything to do. Its not like the few devs still on GW1 content are somehow being sidetracked by GW2, any sane company would set up another team for sequel development.
As to what I need to concern myself with, I'll keep my own counsel, not that of a Krewe guy working on skill updates to a game so far gone around the bend that there's little hope of saving it.
The thread is still open because people are unhappy with the fact that ANet is still trying to fix a game thats been out for nearly five years, and still has balance problems. Of course, its obvious to anyone with sentience that the problem with GW is not in some random skill balancing but the base design of the game, such as static mobs, reward/time ratios, and class implementation, but those MAJOR issues are being glossed over in favor of another ill thought out skill balance in conjunction with ridiculously overpriced cosmetic fluff to line the pockets of NCSoft's executives.
Truly a sad day for what once was a fine game.
Regulus X
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Somehow I doubt "running a game" involves hundreds of employees working at a 1930s telephone switchboard.
I've worked in the networking industry, and its largely automated, especially when you're talking large server farms. The only time people need to get involved is when there is maintenance, repairs or upgrades such as new content. As the "new content" consists of two costumes, I'll assume they stuck the janitor on that, my gf who's a novice at 3d modeling could whip those up in a week. Its silly to assume they had anything to do. Its not like the few devs still on GW1 content are somehow being sidetracked by GW2, any sane company would set up another team for sequel development. As to what I need to concern myself with, I'll keep my own counsel, not that of a Krewe guy working on skill updates to a game so far gone around the bend that there's little hope of saving it. The thread is still open because people are unhappy with the fact that ANet is still trying to fix a game thats been out for nearly five years, and still has balance problems. Of course, its obvious to anyone with sentience that the problem with GW is not in some random skill balancing but the base design of the game, such as static mobs, reward/time ratios, and class implementation, but those MAJOR issues are being glossed over in favor of another ill thought out skill balance in conjunction with ridiculously overpriced cosmetic fluff to line the pockets of NCSoft's executives. Truly a sad day for what once was a fine game. |
Lishy
Must... Resist... WTF dr Seuss pic for... This.. And... posts...
GAH
My roflcopter goes ch ch ch ch ch
GAH
My roflcopter goes ch ch ch ch ch
lishi
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Somehow I doubt "running a game" involves hundreds of employees working at a 1930s telephone switchboard.
I've worked in the networking industry, and its largely automated, especially when you're talking large server farms. The only time people need to get involved is when there is maintenance, repairs or upgrades such as new content. As the "new content" consists of two costumes, I'll assume they stuck the janitor on that, my gf who's a novice at 3d modeling could whip those up in a week. Its silly to assume they had anything to do. Its not like the few devs still on GW1 content are somehow being sidetracked by GW2, any sane company would set up another team for sequel development. As to what I need to concern myself with, I'll keep my own counsel, not that of a Krewe guy working on skill updates to a game so far gone around the bend that there's little hope of saving it. The thread is still open because people are unhappy with the fact that ANet is still trying to fix a game thats been out for nearly five years, and still has balance problems. Of course, its obvious to anyone with sentience that the problem with GW is not in some random skill balancing but the base design of the game, such as static mobs, reward/time ratios, and class implementation, but those MAJOR issues are being glossed over in favor of another ill thought out skill balance in conjunction with ridiculously overpriced cosmetic fluff to line the pockets of NCSoft's executives. Truly a sad day for what once was a fine game. |
1) People bitch because people do, use your long term memory to ever major nerf there is always people doing that. SF is no exception.
People bitched even when they fixed the derv bomb who allowed to kill any target in less then 1 second. Yea, people bitch because anet broke their favorite toy, and each time there was a epic QQ thread on guru about pro-nerf and no-nerf faction. This is not even that long compared to the past.
2) You keep saying let me play as i wish, probably you should played a single player game, Again use your long term memory, tell me when that ever happened in GW. You clearly chosen the wrong game.
3) You say that anet don't give a damm about the game, and all who keep gw running is a skeletral crew, witch is true, at same time you bash at their attempt to reorganize their business model maybe to find new revenue for founding gw development.
Deviant Angel
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
As the "new content" consists of two costumes, I'll assume they stuck the janitor on that, my gf who's a novice at 3d modeling could whip those up in a week.
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I'm dying to see this.
Trub
@lishi
It's called 'Statler-Waldorf' syndrome.
See it everyday here on guru.
People bitche-and-moan about anything and everything....because they can..lol
It's called 'Statler-Waldorf' syndrome.
See it everyday here on guru.
People bitche-and-moan about anything and everything....because they can..lol
Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by lishi
Random thought.
1) People bitch because people do, use your long term memory to ever major nerf there is always people doing that. SF is no exception. People bitched even when they fixed the derv bomb who allowed to kill any target in less then 1 second. Yea, people bitch because anet broke their favorite toy, and each time there was a epic QQ thread on guru about pro-nerf and no-nerf faction. This is not even that long compared to the past. 2) You keep saying let me play as i wish, probably you should played a single player game, Again use your long term memory, tell me when that ever happened in GW. You clearly chosen the wrong game. 3) You say that anet don't give a damm about the game, and all who keep gw running is a skeletral crew, witch is true, at same time you bash at their attempt to reorganize their business model maybe to find new revenue for founding gw development. |
We would need to find someone else who thinks typing 500 word essays filled with wrong facts, and idiotic opinions makes their facts less wrong, and opinions less idiotic. Kaleban's posts are like a dumpster...while he may think typing a LOT of words validates the words he is typing, it actually just fills the dumpster with trash.
WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
The other problem is, though, that I have yet to clear the new Dhuum UW in a normal balanced group. The few times we came close we spent ALOT of time doing it.
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Trip555
While the UnderWorld can be very frustrating for balanced teams, but doable with a special team (Terratank, Imbagon and so on),
the worst Area in the whole game is certainly the "Foundry of Failed Creations".
Eventually the people did never notice that because they,
a, took a run paying 20k
b, are 600/smite/famine farmers
However after the 600 is nerfed these options are a thing from the past - eventually.
So my suggestion would be - as there is no interest to rebalance areas - give Lightbringer Gaze a boost.
If you are Lightbringer rank 8 you should deal 140 dmg instead of 100 to Abbadons demonic servants.
Or reduce its reload time to 10 seconds.
Also for every rank in Lightbringer you should took two less damage instead of one.
the worst Area in the whole game is certainly the "Foundry of Failed Creations".
Eventually the people did never notice that because they,
a, took a run paying 20k
b, are 600/smite/famine farmers
However after the 600 is nerfed these options are a thing from the past - eventually.
So my suggestion would be - as there is no interest to rebalance areas - give Lightbringer Gaze a boost.
If you are Lightbringer rank 8 you should deal 140 dmg instead of 100 to Abbadons demonic servants.
Or reduce its reload time to 10 seconds.
Also for every rank in Lightbringer you should took two less damage instead of one.
mrvrod
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
Oh no, SF's nerf is definitely the GW apocalypse...I mean, Kaleban might leave for good. I cannot fathom how the game could continue afterwards. ANet would quite likely need to shut down the servers due to their lack of income, and people would never again find a good group to join. PvP would be dead, simply because people would be too upset about Kaleban's departure to even fight each other.
We would need to find someone else who thinks typing 500 word essays filled with wrong facts, and idiotic opinions makes their facts less wrong, and opinions less idiotic. Kaleban's posts are like a dumpster...while he may think typing a LOT of words validates the words he is typing, it actually just fills the dumpster with trash. |
Imho, not even worthy of the dumpster.
Anet talks about "balance" in PvE, come on! When I can create a solo-build that alows me to have between 45-50k hp like Duncan the Black, then you can cry balance! There is no balance in PvE, never has been, never will be. It's an illusion.
Keep catering to the elite few, and I'll be gone too.