Next Skill Balance

What you guys don't understand is that if they kept the same builds around and never change anything the game would become stale and no one would want to play it anymore.

By changing up skills it drives people to use 'creativity' and make new builds and try new things. If A-Net listened to the community that got butt-hurt over every single update we would still be back in 2005, farming shit without them fleeing from AoE. How fun would that be, doing the same thing for 4 years?

Be thankful A-Net "nerfs" things because it keeps content fresh until the majority can abuse the next big build to come about and claim it as their own. (Although they have been quite slow in the past year)

600 should be nerfed by changing the funcionality of Holy Wrath and Retribution, two skills that are used for nothing else other than farming. I see no reason to change Protective Spirit when it is a staple skill for balanced builds, so even if it had a PvE-only split, it would be an undeserved nerf.

HW/Retribution does not even need nerf, it needs bugfix:

It still deals full damage even when 600 recieves zero damage via Shield of Absorption instead of doing damage it should (33% of zero and 66% of zero, which is, you know, zero).

But i am the only that wanna see dismissed skills buffed to a "normal skills"?
I wanna find a sense to use equinox or lacerate (i'm a ranger but it is same for other professions i suppose), traps (not for farming) and spirit in pve etc etc.
Ok i am agree with needs to rebalance the game but not to kill it at all.
I wanna a more variety of effective build. Not a new god mode but a new variety of fun and effective builds.

This makes more sense than the pages of drivel posted above.

Do not allow entry to UW if you have SF on your skill bar. Problem Solved for ANET, no more SF UWSC, no need waste manpower balancing the skill. Still allows solo farming elsewhere in game using SF. Stays in line with ANETs stated feelings on the issue.

I may be wrong, but it seems that the basic mechanisms for doing this are already in game. Examples: cannot equip more than 3 PVE only skills, events that change your skill bars upon entry to a location, not able to enter the Zaishen Challenge while a hero is in your party.

How hard would it be to block the few "unwanted" skills from entering UW? This would eliminate the need for all the nerfing.

Your full graph was basically making up shit (order of builds, obsiflesh being strongest after sf) while it ignores "mob" power, and he was correcting your mistakes and worst conceptual mistake: "stretch"

He correctly pointled out that if you stretch it back to 100%, you also have to stretch mobs. When you take mobs into account, Your new "top" will NOT be as overpowered as SF was, mobs will be much closer to whatever best build is. It is going to be slower and less effective.

Because it will not be as powerfull in relation to proper baseline: mobs. Because relation to mobs matters most if we talk about easy buttons and win-skills.

So no, it is not going to look as overpowered. best run duration for new farm build simply be higher, no relative graph will hide it and average pug run duration will stay same. Sorry, it is not going to look as much imba as you think.

People are not blind, they will notice longer and harder runs ... And they will remember SF. High "sf" baseline might as well stay because people will compare new teambuild with sf, and will come to conclusion: it is weaker, dude.

Oh yes, your "point"

Well, you do not need graphs and/or to make shit up to disprove this, you can know with certainty.

Why? Because we were already there, duh. Everyone who complains about SF just laughed at OF as slow and pointless back then. It was slow to point where half competent pug could compete with it.

So no, it did not look "as over-powered as SF". But go ahead, argue history...

This is a terrible idea, but not without some merit. The problem arises then that if ANet were to set a precedent for banning certain Elite (or even normal skills) from PvE areas that were deemed by someone as OP, then the next time a QQ thread pops up, another skill gets nerfed, ad infinitum, until all you can do is auto-attack.

Your idea's merit though is in pointing out the necessity for area balance. Some have said that SF is OP, and they're right, but then they call for a nerf without realizing WHY its OP, which is wrong.

SF is OP because, just like any other OP build, it exploits the game mechanic and player knowledge to take advantage of mob AI, static skill and mob placement, and many other factors.

Rather than starting a trend of skill nerfing from the beginning, as ANet did, they COULD (and still should) have altered mob makeup and placement, just as in games like Diablo (this game's inspiration to some extent) that made characters have to react to new situations.

This is the BEST solution, and the easiest metaphor I can think of is this:

You have a Swiss Army Knife (skillbar). It has many tools on it, and some are more multi-purpose than others (saw blade is more useful in general than the toothpick). You change the tools you use based on the situation (alter skillbar for certain areas).

However, the problem now is, ANet's skill nerfing and those that support it are basically telling players that they have to buy a new SAK every couple of months, with new and different tools, to counter the problems in the same areas. Once people figure out how the new tools work, the same problems will crop up because the challenges presented to the player are ALWAYS the same.

If ANet instead left the SAK alone, and focused their energies on making areas and mobs randomize (or say have a mob pick a certain skillset out of four possible ones upon entering the instance), not only would their be less work in the long run due to this sort of being "automated balancing" but it would encourage renewed interest in old areas and more diverse groups to handle the varied challenges.

[edit] This is like a Frozen Orb Sorc in D2 blitzing through most of D2 in Normal and NM, but getting stopped "cold" (pun intended) by all the cold immune monsters in Hell, necessitating either group play or a change in tactics and skill point allocation. Or even re-building a more effective character.

GW took the idea of re-builds and made it easier, by allowing you to do this at any time basically, but forgot entirely about randomization, which adds a LOT of replayability.

In short, ANet should:

1. Make mobs skills and placement AND selection randomize, either completely or a choice of a certain number of preset options.

2. Re-examine the rewards and drops for areas, not just Duncan's chest but also grawl in Surmia. By either randomizing drops (i.e. ecto has a 0.004% chance to drop ANYWHERE) or expanding drop tables to make early areas more attractive than just feather farming and such, you'd see a renewed interest in ALL areas.

There could be other things done, but just these two would take MUCH less time and effort than beta testing skill patches for multiple weeks and setting up test servers etc., etc. AND they would be much more effective at actually solving the problem.

The gist of impulsion's proposal was that in replacing the grossly imba sf with of or something more moderate, the community is forced to play through with an experience nearer to that of a balanced team, rather than running 8 copies of the same bar and laughing at the mobs with impunity. I believe that when he said that of would look as imba as sf, he was referring to the trend of constant nerfing that seems to go on.

As for my post, I was merely expressing a bit of indignation towards the troll, and pointing out that his attack on impulsion was unjustified. I am sure that impulsion was aware of the relation to the mob baseline when he wrote his post.

OF is not as strong as SF

You have a speed clause, require upkeeping skills, lack of bar compression, and can still be hit by any non-spell.

Don't jump to conclusions

I keep telling myself that people will get tired/run out of things to talk about, regarding shadow form and it's up coming nerf.

I hate being wrong.



It's getting nerfed. It needed to be nerfed. If you disagree, it's simply because you use it to get rich and/or abuse it and don't want to see it go. I don't see what the all the debate is about.

As the heavy would say, "CRY SOME MORE!".

330 OF is virtually identical considering you take a whopping 0 damage, have spell immunity and have no damage penalty. Your vulnerabilities are almost identical to SF adding in physical interrupts (they don't miss). The movement penalty can be effectively bypassed with cons which also help reduce recharge times giving you a little more freedom in bar layout.

It really doesn't matter though because everything is relative. OF was the most popular option before SF came along and it will become the most popular option again when it's gone. People adapt and the game goes on.

If SF replaced OF in almost everything. That mean relative to OF (and pretty much most of other thing in the game) SF is better, and not by a little length.

Remember, getting 0 damage is not the same as not being hit.
The speed reduction mean also much less flexibility.

I'm not arguing against SF dominance, that has nothing to do with my post.

Farmers/runners have improved in skill and knowledge of the runs. All this means is that some areas will either cost more to do quickly/safely or require more skillful players to do it, nothing else changes. If your average Perma player can figure out that it's a bad idea to stand on top of a trap cluster (most of the time anyways) I'm pretty sure the average OF player will understand it's a bad idea to stand in front of D-Shot spammers.

Movement speed can be buffed to get that -50% down to -17%. That was workable two years ago and it's still workable today.

I have seen mob skill and selection randomization mentioned before and I think that would also be a good fix, but my only question is how would that affect what skills the players take?

As you mention it is player knowledge of an area that allows it to be vanquished quickly. However, if we have no knowledge of what to expect or a limited set as you describe, would that area become impossible to complete due to the random nature or only having a chance of clearing the area by bringing the correct counters and matching the limited skill/mob set rotation. Implemented correctly I would agree that it is a good alternative to nerf bat.

As ANET has stated it is not the farming itself that bothers them it is the speed of the farming. IMO I think either suggestion (random skill & mob / skill denial in an area) could be made to work and are a much better option to the endless nerfing of the next best speed clear.

D2 - memories - sigh.... I do miss my mephisto runs

I would just bring my Necro Assassin's Promise caller with the three Necro Discord Heroes, and probably still have an easy time on Hardmode.

But implementing random mobs with balanced, random skill bars is a start.

Really not sure why people keep mentioning this.

Would it be great? Yes.
Is ANet going to spend time completely revamping the foundation of the game? No

Best option - Change every mob in the game, each with a balanced build and a balanced group.

Realistic option - Nerf SF. New stuff wil appear/reappear.

Hoping it will be implemented in GW.

If not, hoping it will be implemented in GW2.

If not, keep on whining about it until Anet figures their game model isn't able to accompany such game code, decides to ditch GW2 and starts building GW3.

WoW works fine with static mob skills.

This.

This.

These are the same thing no? The most effective farming build is by definition the build which allows you to make the most money in the least amount of time.

What I am saying is that everything is relative. When SF is dead, there will still be a "best" build. The amount of money you make doing a run, depends on how long the best build takes to do it. With SF nerfed, it takes longer to get an ecto, but the ecto is worth more. The rate at which you get money is the same.

As I said before, yes balanced PUGs will make more money per unit time. Let's say that the best build earns money at a rate of 2k/minute. Whilst SF is here, balanced PUGs might make say 50g / minute. Once you nerf a lot of farming builds, it may be that balanced PUGs will earn 1.999k / minute. It doesn't matter, the point is that there is still a best build, and purely for the purposes of farming there is no point running a build that earns 1.999k / min when you can run one which earns 2k / min. There is still no group diversity, people will always use the best option available.
You could argue that having a balanced PUG as the most effective build is the ultimate goal, but this would just mean that balanced PUG is the build that now needs nerfing.
The end scenario of having multiple builds all of which are equally effective will, as I said before, cause my argument to fall flat on its face. There are 5, 10, 20 builds all of which are equally the best. PUGs will form and anybody of any class can join, and run their favorites because they all work just as well as each other.

I do not believe that the game will ever, or can ever, reach this stage.

Hi.
Stop with the ad hominems and flat out personal attacks. If it's too hard then just don't post. Thanks.

See, you're why things keep going south in this game.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to add in a few lines of code to the game to make monster mobs randomize their skill allocations completely, or even pick from an array a predetermined set of skills?

No you don't, which is why you think its a terrible idea. If you had any knowledge of how the game really works, you wouldn't be nay-saying the idea of "revamping" because its NOT.

It would take less work and man-hours to institute random skill allocation or predetermined sets than it would a skill balance. The reason being that its just a little bit of code update, much less even than it takes to do a Costume Pack, since you're not doing any altering of the game format itself, just adding in basically a random number generator that does a script call from an array.

Much simpler than 3d modeling and such.

As to Tull's question about how it would affect players, its simple. By NOT knowing what you'll face in a given area at any one time, its much better to take a group that has multiple capabilities and is broader in scope. A side benefit is that the monster and power creep wouldn't need to be as severe, since parties would not be SO specialized and would need multiple profession types to be successful.

My brother could probably write the code in an afternoon, and e-mail it over to ANet lol.

Additionally, by addressing the reward/time ratios, you could make farming less attractive while at the same time reinvigorate areas that are abandoned.

So really, my ideas would make the game much better, especially when compared to the endless nerf/buff cycle that changes the characters, but does nothing for the actual encounters in the game.

When are you and your brother going to release your game to the world as it ought to be spectacular.

Adding code to randomise mobs is trivial, and indeed already exists in the game in most areas.

What is somewhat harder is designing the possible mobs and variances in every zone in the game. Each has to be consistant with the eco-system for that region. So while it's easy in principle, it is in fact quite a lot of work, much of which has already been done, to do much more could detract from the main story and consistancy of the game.

To completely randomize the skill sets? A few minutes. The result would be mobs with even crappier skillbars. Let's not forget that most of the skills in the game are utter crap.

That is, except when they end up with good builds that by coincidence they just happen to be able to use. Then you'd have unbeatable mobs. Yeah, that's a good idea.

Predetermined combos would be better (ie, a certain amount of variation in monster builds each instance designed to weed out gimmicks). But that's much harder to implement because it's not truly random; it's deliberately chosen monster builds that aren't always going to see the light of day. In other words, they'd do a whole lot of extra work that most people aren't going to see, and since those monster builds wouldn't always see play, luck would become a far greater determinator of a group's success. Heck, all you would have to do is keep running your favorite gimmick build and wait until the instance failed to produce something to counter it. That's not balance. That's just polarizing the results of the game.

PvE would become the same as 1v1: either you brought the right build to counter what the other guy brought, or you didn't. And what do you know? 1v1 is not thought of very highly.

Another thing: unless you change the majority of the mobs in an area to counter something, it won't have a meaningful effect, because a person using a gimmick can just rely on the gimmicks employed by the rest of the party to deal with that one guy he can't. So the only way to really counter all the various overpowered stuff without nerfing it is to basically specialize the mobs for dealing with gimmicks, leaving them unable to effectively challenge balanced groups. In effect, balanced would become a gimmick.

The worst part is that even when your tactic works, it would be no better than Anet's current tactic of just nerfing overpowered stuff across the board, because people would inevitably discover builds that the predetermined AI build sets are not equipped to deal with. Unless you stop the problem at it's source (overpowered skills), it will keep cropping up in some form or another.

That just isn't true and it's easy to see. Whether or not people use the best option depends upon the disparity between what the degenerate group earns and what the balanced group earns. Solo farming crowds out other activities when it pays too well compared to alternatives; ditto for degenerate teams. SF drives degenerate teams, and it is so much more efficient than balanced that balanced gets crowded out. Narrow the disparity, and people that value balanced will play it.

While I agree that in the limit this is a pipe dream, this is what happens for a while after a nerf while people search for the new "best option". You can create this stage by repeatedly nerfing whatever emerges as a clear winner and/or buffing alternatives. As people figure out new tactics and find "the most efficient way", the designer has to react to keep the game from slipping into degeneracy again once "the most efficient way" becomes commonly known.

I stated IF more people are against a nerf that should be reason enought not to nerf. I never stated it was a fact. Put up a poll and see where it goes. If you want me to prove a hypothetical, where aer YOUR numbers showing the majority is for nerfing these builds?

I never asked you to care. This is not a threat, it's a statement. Only a fool would continue to play a game they don't enjoy, and I'm no fool. As GW is now, it's going downhill, but I still enjoy it. When that changes, I'll move on. See? Statement, not threat.

It wasn't meant to be a threat, just a statement of fact. If I fail to get enjoyment out of playing a game, I'll move on to something else. I'm just letting people know how I feel about these proposed nerfs. This isn't just about SF. 600smite, discord, and others are also falling under the nerfbat.

Look, I don't want to walk through the game watching as mobs die while I do nothing. That would be boring. Some use these builds that way and play through every area with an overpowered build for that area. Oh well. These are tools for specific jobs, these make some areas doable for myself. Not a cakewalk, doable.

I don't want a cakewalk. I use the 2 man discord, but not for every area of the game. These builds, for me, are like specific tools for specific jobs. Show me a human Warrior, Human Ranger, 6 hero build, that doesn't use any of the builds being looked at for potential nerf, that will complete Slaver's Exile?

There are several such elite areas like this one where certain builds make the area doable for myself and my guildie. By no means are we enjoying a cakewalk it these areas, we're just finally able to complete them.

I have made many friends in game. Many from other countries and/or timezones. When we can get together, we do.

Excuse me for being unwilling to walk away from a guild that I and my children created. I forgot that sentimentality means nothing in a day where divorce proceedings typically last longer than the marriages they are disolving.

these guys probably tank and spank XD abuse the pve skills.. think read something about someone wanted 7 hero's now too XD so let's get this strait.. no more pugs anywhere, you have 7 heros so you can do anything in the game..

how is this any different than the solo's going on right now.. it's just envy- they can't do certain things in the game and so nobody else should be able to either

If you think elite areas need to be made easier, then ok. I can get behind you on that. But that's a completely different debate.

Also, there is more to the game than the elite areas.

Not for those of us who've been around for years. I've beaten everything in this game, several times over, on several different characters, except the elite areas. The elite areas are the only new content left for me.

then you dont want it to be easier cuz this is the last challange for you

No, I don't want it to be easy. I do want it to be possible. Again, like I stated in a previous post. Show me a build with a human Warrior, a human Ranger, and 6 heroes that can complete Slaver's Exile, that doesn't rely on the builds that are up for nerfing.

elite areas should not be beaten by bad builds or bad set ups, this is why these are hard, bad team with a bad set up wont be able to beat this

you need something special to get through, and imo elite missions shouldnt be beatable(?) with heroes...

and there should not be a build with a ranger+warrior +6 heroes which can achieve success there

So you're for exclusion of people who don't conform to "your" style of play. That explains why you're pro-nerf. Careful, your e-peen is showing.

BTW, since when has HB been a "bad" build? NVM, I really don't want your advice.

Oh, I will be SO glad when GW2 comes out! Not that I intend to play underwatergames. No, not at all! But no more skill balancing, no more nerfing, and finally the end of those endless 'Elite area' discussions... Well no one probably would be able to play there anymore with so little human players around, for that is the consequence of all these nerfs lol! THAN it will be the right time to open my chest of ecto's and be RICH mwhahahahaha!!

I was able to beat Duncan in HM with a broad head arrow ranger (me) a SV necro hero, a MM Necro Hero, a Necro Rit hero and 4 henchies (I think I used cons, but I truely cannot remember).

I have also beated him in NM without a SV Necro, with just the general Sabway and 4 henchies. I just kept him dazed and kept the heroes and henchies spread out.

As far as I know the Sabway build is not up for nerfing, however I could be wrong, if so I will go beat him again without it.

It is not impossible, just takes tactics. I have played the dungeons with this build many times and have gotten used to it and the senerios in the dungeons. However put me in DOA or Urgoz or another similar place in HM and I probably would not be able to beat them right away, however I am sure there are other people who would be able to. It is about practice, these areas are doable, just really hard and they require practice.

As for a Ranger and a Warrior human, I would suggest a BHA Ranger with frozen soil and swap, a Earthshaker/ backbreaker warrior with Save Yourselves 3 necro heroes, one set up as a SV, a fire or earth ele, a Shutdown Mes, a healer/ prot monk, and either another healer/ prot monk or another ele. That should do the trick. (If Save Yourselves is up for Nerfing, bring something else, you should be fine).

If you would like to pitch around some ideas pm me. I dont get to play much now, but in a few months when I can play more if you are still having problems, we can go it together.

Not that I'm trying to bust your balls here...but you do know that the original Slavers team included both a War and a Ranger right? You could easily do that with some micro. Unless you insist on HM and then I don't know what to tell you...it is Hard with a capital H and you need human players for aggro control that won't camp cast. Anyways, I don't know what the kiddies run nowadays but this setup worked then for dozens of runs with no PvE crap or perma and should work now...

1x OF tank
1x Splintbarrage/FS
1x SS/br (switches to N/A SV/swapper for Duncan)
3x SH/SF generic fire nuker (or 2x and an IV spiker/corpse deny on Dunc)
1x ZB/bond
1x HB/HP general blah healer

by HB do you mean? (hero battles, healers boon, heavy blow...??)

sorry i cant help if you want hard areas to be very easy and beatable with any build
this is not about playing style

Then you, like me, should know that a godmode button (excuse me, its THREE buttons) that can only be used on primary sins completely craps on those elite areas.

It's an insult to the game.