Next Skill Balance

so yeah 2 skills to stay alive...but wait what does prot spirit and spirit bond do????? oh yeah KEEPS YOU ALIVE!

You can't 600 with just Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond. Argument fail, Axeman002.

I never claimed that 600/smite is balanced. I simply want to draw a distinctive line between SF and 600/smite. They differ a lot, both in mechanics and in methods. Besides, Regina is comparing SF invulnerability with 600/smite 'invulnerability'. That comparison is utterly wrong and a decent CM should know better.

On a side note: Nerfing 'farming' is killing one of the three Guild Wars endgame possibilities. Dumb move?

I don't get how this is hard to comprehend.
SF and 600/smite are both overpowered. SF is more overpowered than 600/smite. But that does not make 600/smite balanced. It still allows 1 person to tank, and 2 people to kill, zones that were designed to provide challenge for 8 people.

My only concern about 600/smite is that a-net may forget to consider collateral nerf damage (like they always do) and royally muck up normal play by nerfing PS and/or SB instead of smite or SoA.

u also cant perma with just 2 skills...so also ure fails Enon


anyway this is turning into another SF bashing thread.....lets stick to the 600 bashing instead..i love seeing monks bleed there hearts out thats there dear 4 yr old farm build is dooooooooooomed lol

Wow you really do fit the typical Assassin/Shadow Form stereotype...

You can, if you use an Essence. Otherwise you need 3 skills. Either way - less skills for a better effect, therefor SF can't be compared with 600.

i stick up for the people who enjoy the part of the game QQ'rs try to abolish because 'they dont like it'...

i also 600/smite...but i find perma more fun...there both getting nerfed...thats for sure ...its the QQ i like to see...all these people throwing it at sins because we have an 'OP tanking skill'...im sure if ure proffession had a bar that was OP you would use it aswell...oh u do dont you lol.

but in all fairness easy way to nerf 600/55 necro/330 rit/105 rit etc etc...nerf prot spirit....just like u think solving the perma problem is to nerf SF.

You obviously never paid attention to al lthe hate that SF got for the griefer builds running around in PvP that basically did nothing but stall for 45+ minutes having a SF sin running around that you could never kill, or that there was a cash prize tournament that WM won with using a dual SF sin build in the semi's.

SF got decimated in PvP because of the abuse it was recieving, not the skill and play the build promoted, because outside of one guild using a build with it, the rest of the builds were all degenerate builds.

Says who? They are designed to allow no more than 8 players. If they were designed specifically to provide a challenge for 8 people then you would not be able to enter the zone unless you had a full party. If you want that to be the end outcome then you'll struggle to get that party, players are spread out all over the place and such implementation would be the end of GW for many of us who have already been there and done it. If there was no farming there would be little reason for many of us to hang around. Facts are its a part of the game many of us enjoy and always have and ncsoft have already stated that soleable play will be possible in GW2. There will never be a "balance" while you have experienced and inexperienced players, experienced players will always be able to achieve things beyond the comprehension of inexperienced players until such a point as they learn for themselves the tricks of the trade. The fact that inexperienced players do get to play alongside and learn from experienced players at an early stage is what seperates this game from many similar games. But to expect experienced players to continuously teach and help newbs how to do that Sanctum Cay mission in NM day in day out for 5 years is unrealistic (that may be some peoples style of play and kudos to them), which is why we have such things as solo farming in the game. But even farmers get bored and break off to help some random guildie get through a mission with no benefit to themselves.

As i have already stated, i do not believe that perma and 600 are anymore overpowered than any other farming build. The imbalance is with their counter opponents and the AI. Other builds have more counters. 55's used to pwn their way through virtually everything back in the day, which they put a stop to, there was never any real nerf to the builds themselves. This was a success, we still get to enjoy playing 55's even though its not quite as profitable as it once was. The economy isn't the way it is now because of 600 or SF, its because the demand for rare items is alot higher than the drop rate and you have people to compete against who've been accumulating wealth and means of achieving it over years. Yes there are people who've joined the game and ecto farmed 24/7 from day 1, but these people do not represent the majority of players or have that great an effect on the economy, that style of play is far too tedious for the majority. Ecto/shard drop rates are lower than they've ever been. the prices of ectos has started to rise again since the update with less people able to successfully do UWSC with Dhuum or even solo farm like they used to. Shard prices are dropping as UWSC farmers have moved over to FoWSC, nerfing SF won't stop that, there are other viable tanks and lots of solo farms. They need to do something similar to FoW as UW to get shard prices back up and make it an "Elite" area again. They need to counter SF and 600 by updating the AI and monster skill distribution and i agree some randomisation of mobs would be fun, despite some limitations.

Why even bother modifing skills anymore, it's not balance at all. What the hell are you trying to balance?

Stop modifing skills to challenge the elete, and piss off the causal gamer. The only thing that needs balancing is the GW economy, by fixing prices on materal and rare materal items. Do that and farming for those items will be abandoned, also lose the gold cap. Face it GW is dieing and in a couple more years will be dead, due to your release of GW2. So let some of us have some fun with the game before it dies, return the skills back to their normal fuction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Balance is the result of trying to be prepared for anything that might be encountered. As such a "balance build" requires an environment in which the player can never accurately predict against what he might end up in the next 10 minutes.

Since PvE is 100% predictable, balance is not an option making sense for a PvE player. As a PvE player I want a high degree of specialization. I want that gimmick skillset hitting the enemy's weak spot.

It also does not matter if one guy pushes three buttons to tank, or if a team wastes a few skillslots more until the same is achieved. Right now, a MoP spike requires three guys, so even if the other five people would spam enchantments till kingdom come to make one guy invincible, the basic approach would not change one bit. Can't have a threee skill Sin? Too bad, take the four skill Warrior with the SB Monk in the back.

We don't want it nerfed because we don't like it, we want it nerfed because it's game breaking. You should never be able to 123 and be [nearly] invincible in an online game.

Correction, OP farming/tanking/running/everything build.
invalid argument is invalid. Many of us use SF, but that doesn't make it any less broken. To be at the top of the game you have to quickly adjust to the meta, and with SF, farmers are almost forced into using it (not literally, but by demand). Also, many, and I'd like to say the majority, of players do not have a single profession.

not ALL farming builds should be nerfed. In fact, if Anet had a problem with 55s, they wouldn't have put one into the game themselves. Most farming builds, and especially those relying on Prot Spirit, are fragile, and can only farm certain areas. Those areas are usually, and if not quickly outfarmed because of the access people have to them (Dead Bow: Bergen Hot Springs).

The main problem I assume Anet has with farming builds is not WHAT they can farm, it's how quickly and efficiently they can farm them. It's hard to force a happy medium between supply and demand, and that medium is directly effected by what farming builds are allowed to farm where.

Why do PvE players care so much about game balance? I'm not asking this as the usual lol pee vee eee, I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone would care about having farm builds nerfed. It seems most of the arguments presented are entirely out of spite and the seriousness confounds me.

because extreme imbalance of SF ruins the prices of items, which ruins the gameplay for players who don't want to play assassins. Before you say that it doesn't ruin gameplay at all because I can get max stuff easily -> it works for everything except for stupid money titles which bring nothing and you need to finish them if you want GWAMM. I have played GW for 3 years and I'd really like to get GWAMM, which is a highest rank a PvE player can get, and it sucks when a farmer (in a game which is against grinding/farming) is better than a player who tries to play the way the game was supposed to be played (no grind/farm, only skills).
that's an example why balance ruins the game for me. I am sure other people have their own reasons, even as simple as that every game requires balance.

You can farm without it being a solo farm.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=266

This is true.

Bye bye MoI and leave 600/smite alone :/ until it clears the UW HM in ~30 mins, it's fine how it is now

Just because it can't clear the UW in 30 minutes doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed.

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE. Without farming skills, well, you know all those pretty little titles you see what you press H? Half of them will be impossible without an unhealthy obsession with holiday quests. 3 consumable titles, alcohol, sweets, and party, all costs a minimum of 3mill along with lucky and treasure hunter, also requiring a large sum of money. How do you people propose we get that much money in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can waste 4 hours in UW with no SF getting no more than 4 ectos and pray that you get a drop wroth 100e+ but honestly, do you believe you'll get it? No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.

This is also why PvE titles outside of cartographer/guardian/protector/vanquisher are retarded concepts.

Why should they not be balanced?

The only build that comes close to replacing Sf would either be the SoS rit or terra tank. None of which are even close to clearing areas in the time SF does but should also be looked at because SoS is compressing 3 skills into one for no energy, and obby can be maintained creating another case of invincibility.

Nerfing 600/smite and permaform will not be the end of the economy/the end of GW. For people like you sputtering BS that everything is going to hell, please do the rest of us a favor and stop posting about it.

QFT

Maybe even skill hunter...though it should be broken up by profession skills instead of campaign, imo.

Such as, Assassin Skill Hunter, Paragon Skill Hunter, etc etc.

Back in 2005 we farmed Sorrow's Furnace with Warriors, Monks, Eles and Necros. It was fair tank-and-spank, and ANet still legitimately nerfed the Ele AoE (adding scatter) and the minionmancers (capping minions per Necro).

To those that have been around the game for a while, stuff like Ursan, SF, 605/Smite and Obs Flesh are off-the-charts screaming for a nerf by comparison.

I've continuously argued that certain insane options should be kept in this game due to this exact reason, but now I am starting to wonder if maybe a massive trashing of these options shouldn't be in order, thus killing off certain aspects of the game, since it seems that a dead game will be the best reminder of the mistakes made.

Just got back from vacation... so sorry for being slow on this

...... must remain calm... do, not rage... just breathe...

Ok... I am just, completely, dumb founded at the lengths to go about nerfing a build that forces people or additions to work together properly. Why dont you go after Raptor Farming or somthing? :45 seconds for a single SOLO Raptor run; and you want to go after a team build that takes up about 20-45 minutes? Did I miss somthing that Lindsey said about helping people play together in the game back at PAX? Because it sounds to me, you all just lied to us if you are nerfing team builds and ignoring Solo builds like Raptor.

I will say that this is your only saving grace with me... for now... being that my main is Warrior... so I am looking forward to these tweaks. I personally have tried looking at ways to work Hammer into PvE... and with everything being so Adr heavy... and the mobs spread out and killed so fast you dont even get a skill off, just makes the weapon totally useless...

And on a side note... at least you are not nerfing Shadow Form into oblivion like a couple of skills from the past... and making it possiably useful for somthing or other...

You can use a hero half the time. Not much teamwork there.
Two brokens don't make a fix. If farming builds are nerfed, the titles will also (probably) get fixed if there is enough of a reaction in the community. But, leaving everything broken just to make some optional titles a bit less of a grind is a terrible reason.
OMG! NOTHING'S BALANCED, JUST GIVE UP!!! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

Hahaha , viva la resistance !

I really hope that this delay is worth it , not just to see some SF rework , and 2 more skills changed .

Adding broken crap doesn't fix the game. What it can do it provide a bandaid to negate some of the bigger broken crap in the game though.
This definitely isn't the best solution - but at least it's the devil that we know.

I seriously doubt it. Especially after the guys at A.Net said that they do not plan on reworking additional titles.

Title grind is just as optional as SF is. You are able to play the game without resorting to any grind, just as you are able to play the game without ever using SF.
Don't like grind, don't do it = don't like SF, don't use it.
Right?

I think for most Online RPGs you do the Campaign and then you want to go to the elite areas, the endgame part.
Doing these is often a nightmare in GW, because there are not enough people for month or too many unexperienced people if its the current Zaishen Quest..
After the nerf it will get worse, because you cannot do Four Horseman with a Balanced team without a Perma or similar.
Also Foundry of failed Creations is a nightmare with Pugs (if you are lucky to get one going), that's why people pay 20k+ for a run, rather then trying it.

So before they bring these Nerfs, they should rebalance Domain of Anguish and Underworld and possibly other Areas. Or at least allowing bringing Henchman as a first step.
As it is now the Endgame content can be very frustrating for balancend teams and will be even more after the Perma nerf.

Massively buff loot for groups with more players, implement a dozen different titles based on team work....problem solved. Ohh I forgot, titles should only be extremely grindy and completely unattainable without gimmick farms or perfect guilds.

Probably....as in NEVER. People who don't have super guilds or dedicated friend groups are also people who tend to be casual enough not to post on forums. They just leave the area to do easy solo farms or just leave the game. Meanwhile, less casual people like me that actually want to see the game NOT turn into H/h + guilds get screwed over, because the skill whiners scream the loudest and drowns out all the other (even bigger) issues in the game.

I rather have the game unbalanced but playable. Rather than balanced and I get stuck with empty areas, H/h, and begging guildies. Its bad enough that only UW has people playing, I rather they work on getting at least the end game areas and dungeons more lively than focusing on SF.

Every walk begins with a little step dude and "broken crap" is added and not going to be entirely reworked.

Thats why he says that the mere existance of grinding optional titles is never reason enough to keep broken stuff in the game so they are less grinding , at least that is what i read.

Lets get one thing straight, they ARE NOT nerfing solo farming. They in no way suggest they are and in no way are that stupid to try to. Just because they like to try to promote team play does not mean they are stupid enough to destroy something that is a big part of every mmorpg. This potential nerf has nothing to do with how many characters are used to do a farm or how many skills are needed to be maintained. Its all about speed and quantity. If they reduce the speed and the quantity theres no need to nerf anything.

Seriously, i wander if some of the people posting here even play the game or just sit about QQing on guru all day :P

I'd rather have Anet weed out the broken crap than just add more in an attempt to cover it up.

If they really become "impossible" (like whoever I previously quoted said), Anet might have to make them a bit more reasonable. If they don't, it doesn't really matter since titles have no effect on gameplay.

This is semi-true. But, almost all elite areas use some sort of perma in their team, so restricting myself from SF would result in me getting restricted from end-game content as well.

- This would encourage leeching
- Why change game mechanics instead of an OP farming build?
- How would a teamwork title work?

The "Teamwork Title" would have to be extremely grindy as well. If it wasn't, people would quickly gain the title and go back to their 1-2 man farms.

Agreed. Hopefully, Anet will fix the elite areas along with (or shortly after) the nerf of SF and 600.

In all technicalities, you do not NEED money to get Sweet Tooth, Party Animal and Drunkard, or even Treasure Hunter/Wisdom. Let's look and see:

Sweet Tooth: Candy Canes, Red/Blue/Green Rock Candy, Creme Brulee... etc... can all be obtained in game, with no money down and 0 payments til 2015 (hehe), sure, it may take awhile to do that, but you can get it without paying a dime for any of the sweets.

Party Animal: Sparklers, Firework Crates, Bottle Rockets, those can all be obtained for Zaishen Coins, doing the daily Zaishen Mission/Bounty/Combat. Disco Balls are obtainable from the traveler, and the Snowmen Summoners/Ghost-in-the-Boxes and what not are holiday ones, can be obtained during respective holiday events. Again, sure it will take awhile, but saying you NEED TO FARM MONEY TO ACHIEVE THESE TITLES... is not true

Drunkard: Same thing, Kegs of Ale, Firewater, Aged Ale and all that jazz are all obtainable in game. Do Fronis Irontoe's Lair on HM over and over to receive enough Aged Ale to max it. Not only are you not spending money, but you make some each time you do the dungeon (I think?).

Treasure Hunter/Wisdom: These titles are somewhat respective, for a lot of times when you open a high end chest, you may get a gold drop. But just do a lot of HM areas and obtain Lockpicks, open chests, ID the golds etc. Sure, getting 10,000 lockpick drops sounds like its crazy, and I'm sure it is, but I'm just proving my point that you do not need to FARM any money for titles.

Even skill hunter now no longer requires money, you do the daily Zaishen Mission/Bounty/Combat to get coins and buy tomes. The only money required is the transfer from Copper --> Silver ---> Gold then exchanging the Gold coins and 100 gold for the tomes, but as you do the Zaishen Quests, that usually covers you anyway.

My point is, you do NOT need farming builds for anything, except getting rich fast, rather than working hard for your money and doing dungeons/elite areas the way they are supposed to be done, difficultly and not 20-30 minutes. Any titles I have obtained did not require any farming build what-so-ever, so I am totally looking forward to this big update of farming build nerfs. And with that, I thank you for your time if you read all of this

Because farming has always. and will always be done with skills OP in pve while not spilling into the other end game of PVP.

I just see Ecto's going to 15K ap.... I'll never get my Obsidian Armor this way...

Welcome to 2005

What I worry about, is that skills like Retribution and Holy Wrath are just going to get nerfed into the ground to counter 600/smite...rather than reworking them into viable balanced party skills.

Like...make Retribution into a castable enchant (not maintained), keep the same effect, but end it after X attacks.

Like...5 energy, 1/4 cast time, 10 recharge. For 20 seconds, the next 10 attacks cause 33% of the damage back to the attacker.

Maybe a bit weak...but it's at least viable in something other than gimmicks.

Please dont call it balance, call it changes, theres nothing balanced about being able to pick your own build, there will always be the best most effiecient build unless you give everyone the same skill bar which I dont think anyone wants that kind of balance, but it is the only real balancing you could do.

That being said I welcome skill changes to shake things up, maybe have it kind of seasonal like Fesitivals, where certain skills go back to what they were before or change them outrite and let us figure out the new best build. Thats the only way to do it. Lets just no pretend its going to be balanced, it never will be. Change them for change sake, which could mean buffing or nerfing, but not balance.