Preliminary Skill Update Notes: Feb 19

^Quoted for truth. All of it. See, like Shoyon here, I'm a niche too. Mesmer Derv and Para are my 3 favorite classes. As I said earlier, I'd prefer as would most I daresay, that something viable that wasn't pure gimmick be done, and be done before GW2 came out.

Don't get me wrong, it may well be as Arkantos says, they may well be using a further split to put the flame of wtfpwn over them, but given that they haven't even thrown us a bone, it's hard to believe.

Just a bone. Just one measly, 50c at the butchers, bone. Is that too much to ask?

I'm excited about the update, yet in anotherway, rather dissapointed due to the small size of it.

+ This is why I should have been in the TK, because apparently none of them seem to have much clue what skills synergies there seem to exist. I'm going to save you the trouble of possible glitch/OP synergy, and just post it here:

Backbreaker, Sever Artery, Gash, Sun and Moon Slash, Steelfang Slash, Frenzy, Rush, Resurrection Signet.

Combined with Weapon Of Fury means indefinatly quarterknock.

In GvG, this related to 3 of those warriors being able to fully shutdown 3 enemy teammembers, aswell as doing big damage in the process. How did this get overlooked?


And then something that, apperently, got overlooked aswell is the Demonic Flesh update:

Exhausting Assault, Way of the Empty Palm, Demonic Flesh for lolAoE damage. (In PvE, if you run a 33IAS in the sin (agility), this will relate to +- 7 Exhausting Assaults per second. I ASSUME Demonic Flesh will do around splinter damage, as the intent is for it to get used by frontliners (So 35 damage seems balanced per attack skill), and that will result in upwards of 200 armor ignoring DPS.)

Or better yet:

Blinding Powder, Deadly Paradox, Demonic Flesh which will result in about 6 Blinding Powers per second. So that'll be around 180 DPS (Lifestealing per second I gues)



Anyways, just letting you guys know. You saw it here first . (And yes, I do find it sad in a way how I never every skill in GW like the back of my hand)

still.. no Derv update..

Fortunately you have more than 12 att points to throw around!

Ok, impressions:

The nerfs to SF and 600: Good. I will finally be able to say the words "balance" and "PvE" together in the same sentence without bursting out into laughter.

Nerf to OF? Hmmm...Interesting. It will remove one of the primary reasons to play an Elementalist, but since the other useful build they have (Ether Renewal healer) is so ungodly powerful it makes monks useless by comparison in most areas, it's not really a problem in my mind. Be aware, however, that by nerfing OF you will be unable to touch ER in the future without removing what is literally the only build the class has that is worth running.

Be very careful what you do to SoS. Due to their inferior energy management, the main reason Ritualists are still better spirit spammers than other classes (which is the really the only reason to use the class at all) is because of SoS. This particular tap with the nerfbat is fine (maybe even good) because it hits secondary rits just as hard. But if you ever want to nerf spirit spam in some way, make sure it hurts secondary rits more than primary rits. Otherwise they will become a useless primary once again.

I like the changes to Aggressive Refrain and Soldier's Fury, because they address people's concerns about heroes removing the Cracked Armor pointlessly, without removing the downsides of the skills.

Some of the other changes seem a bit unnecessary (I guarantee you, no one is going to be using Featherfoot Grace even after this change), while some of them seem interesting ("Fear Me!" and Heal As One, for example). And a couple of them strike me as having unintended side effects (Silverwing slash may open the door to even more HB+WA spam).

I'm worried about the Necromancer changes. To be frank, Necromancers are already overpowered due to their sheer versatility (MoP+AP, Minions, SS; that's more viable builds right there than some professions have at all!). And builds based on buffing physicals, who then deal as many damage packets as they can, are already pretty close to being overpowered in some cases (the Silverwing slash change may push this way over the edge).

I'm happy that you chose not to give assassins some buffs to try to make them feel better about the SF nerf, because they really don't need them. Even without SF, assassins are one of the most powerful classes in the game thanks to builds like MSDB and critscythe.

I'm confused as to why you chose to prioritize certain things here. Hammer warriors were already powerful enough in PvE (honestly, there's not that much blocking, and scythes are just as slow to swing as hammers), and Ritualists don't really need help. Sure, they don't have much that is worth doing besides spirit spam, but some classes don't even have that much.

Due to the uselessness of interruption, most conditions, and reactive hexes in PvE, Rangers and Mesmers each only have a couple of builds (of questionable usefulness) that are worth using (the only two I can think of for Rangers that other classes can't do better are Barrage+SY! and Barrage+GoForTheEyes!; and all Mesmers are good for is Fevered Dreams or combining AP with Arcane Echo and EVAS). Paragons too, have only one worthwhile build, and it centers around the synergy between TNTF and SY (the latter being a warrior skill).

And the dervish has absolutely nothing worth doing. Any decent dervish build can be done better by another profession (note that the avatars are not "decent"; their effects are either miniscule or useless, depending on the avatar). Scythe warriors beat the best dervish builds by almost 20 dps, while having more armor and no significant downsides. And Assassins beat dervishes by about 40 dps, despite the fact that they have to burn a PvE-only skill on IAS (and they can do it without even using an elite skill!). Even ritualists can use scythes better than dervishes thanks to Spirit's Strength.

I understand that you may already know all of this, and that you may prefer to prioritize the popular classes, but come on, at least give the dervish something he can do better than the other guys. And try not to forget about the other underpowered classes, either.

Interesting update planned. Some ideas I like like the ToV buff, a few I see nerfed, some of the tactics stances might be useful, but I don't see most warriors using them unless they help a warrior's DPS more than frenzy/flail. They could become cancel stances in pvp, but the benefits of rush/sprint especially if you are running a bull strike bar would be hard to pass up.

I'm inclined to believe the same thing. That or we'll receive some sort of "nerf" to SF (600/smite & Obs. too) that will ultimately not be much of a nerf. Aka like the previous update in which farming with sf was supposed to have been slowed down a bit.

I dont see the point in making a big fuss over SF anyway. Its been going on for quite awhile. Guild Wars is dying. Let people enjoy whatever little pleasure they still manage to get out of the game.


I STILL think the Live Team's resources would be better spent on helping build Guild Wars 2. (Am I still the only person that thinks its odd that Linsey decided to takeover GW instead of working on GW2? I mean for the most part I think people would agree that GW1 is old and busted. There's not much you can really do for it anymore.)

I'm not too thrilled about this upcoming update. I didn't expect any mesmer buffs (not that I never do anymore..) I was hoping for some Paragon loving but I guess not. Not much to look forward to. Want to see the SF/600 stuff but thats about it. I'm guessing holy wrath and retribution will receive some sort of nerfs

I'm quite shocked the Test Krewe hasn't leaked anything. (To my knowledge atleast...)

If by some you mean half assed along with a longer wait for the full update, sure. Mesmers aren't terrible, they're just unwanted in pugs because pugs fail, hard.

Also, primary rits suck. The only thing they're good at is spirit spamming and splinter barrage, and neither are super amazing.

So basically what you're saying is balance every profession or don't balance at all? Face it, if ANet tried buffing every single profession in PvE, we wouldn't have gotten this update for months. Balancing some things in one update is better than complete half assed balances for every profession, or no balancing at all.

Believe me, I don't usually defend ANet, but stop thinking they can focus on everything at once and pull off a good update. They focused on some professions/attribute lines that needed change, they changed them. They can't change everything at once.

First of all HAHAHAHAHA!
And then:
- Ancestors' is fabulous! Not only does it mean a damage increase for the players, it also means a nerf to all the blasted ritu baddies that use it!
- Hopefully the new Spirit Rift will cause the AoE flee effect! Once again, that would be a superb nerf to the monsters!
- My assassin will LOVE the change to Binding Chains. I am guessing it will be made even better by removing the "can't attack" clause? Well, "better" for the people that it's used on.

Oh and an interesting choice to buff Cripshot and then trash it the next month. Shows how thought through the changes were.

Edit:
If rits suck, then mesmers are terrible.
They are the dirt that rits place their spirits on.

Primary rits suck, yeah. Other than spirit spamming, a N/Rt can do pretty much everything primary rits can do, just better. Primary mesmers aren't super amazing, but they aren't terrible if you know how do use them. Yes, they definitely deserve buffs for PvE, but people need to stop acting like they're complete shit.

Maybe try reading the whole post and not one line, no offense. And nobody said to not have any skill balance at all.
Almost nobody uses Fevered Dreams (cruddy energy management with scattered groups and long lasting fights), AP, or SoH/Cleaner mesmers (niche).

So PvE-only one of the critical changes.

Maybe I missed something here. Won't Exhausting/Blinding Powder just go on recharge after you use it the first time? How are you managing to use skills with recharges multiple time sin the same second?

I do, however, agree that it looks OP even without your 7-skill-activations-in-a-second combos that I don't understand.

My full comments coming tomorrow.

They aren't complete shit, but most of what we have is someone elses, and that which we did have, was taken away from us first by Nerfing VoR senselessly for PvE when it was PvP where it was being griped about, then seconded by messing with Cry (I say messing, not nerfing ) which they should never have had to do if it'd been thought through and put in FC as a lot have suggested.

I'd go so far as to say that IMO when we still had the disgusting brute force of the VoR chain, when we actually were a wanted class, u know, u say VoR, they say "Ooohhhhh nice wtfpwn damage!!" Then we were a super amazing class in our own way. Anyone who says mesmers can't be about DPS would deny us that time in the sun as well.

As I said, they aren't complete shit. Far from it. You know that and so do I. Problem is getting the rest of the community to notice that, as well as at the same time not going out of their way to reduce the viability we do have.

Sure, there's plenty of builds for Mesmers that are sufficient enough to suffice, but a little shine for once would be far nicer than merely sufficient.

Im glad I did UW (SF) , Foundry of Fail (600) + Slavers Exil (Obby) in HM before these nerfes.

Once again ANet proves that their main concern is nerfing farming and not polishing their High End Content.
These above Areas will be a nightmare from now on for the majority.

GG no Re.

the hell i went through the list and no mesmer pve buffs

hammer looks like beefy fun

DWG is gunna be huge spammable damage for the rit

if the tactics change is also for pvp...
deflect arrows 75% chance to block for 5s at 9 tactics, with a 10s recharge. say hello to the new even better than pre-nerf disciplined stance.

thrill of victory as the new spike skill could be interesting

fear me! is back on iway bars for sure

retreat! on multiple team mates sounds godly...

blood bond looks good for pve physicalways

demonic flesh, see above, could also be used on manlyway spikes

i can't wait lol

No changes to mesmers and dervs? This reminds me of last year April's Fool
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_...0090401#Mesmer

Anyway... I cant wait to see the new Shadow Form. And I was especting a EDA pve revert...but I can live with that.

Considering that A-net has limited resources and that they can't do it all - choosing one's priorities should be a given.
So, when one needs to decide between working on warriors, ritualists, necros OR something like mesmers - which one should get the most urgent help?

If your description of the ritualist class is that it sucks, then the mesmer class needs to be described as terrible. While the rit may be a one trick pony, that's one more trick than the mule of a mesmer can do.
And to make matters worse - they decided to buff the options that were already better than the guy, making him even less desirable.

Well I'll have a good reason to use Hammer now. The SoS won't really do much to my vanquishing abilities cause the damage reduction is small, and the increase in other things will help out. So all in all I like it.

Actually, the wiki usually puts the numbers of any skill at an attribute level of 1...15. So if that's the case then 25 damage is at 15 channeling, so it's actually a difference of 7 damage. That's 21 damage per volley. Pretty significant.

And the thing with SoS recharge was that you didn't need to bring Summon spirits for it to work since the really short recharge meant that you could cast it pretty much wherever you want and it would synergize extremely well with feat of souls, spirit siphon, boon of creation, explosive growth, etc. which required you to constantly create and kill your summons.

So after 5 years, you want to finally tell us that doing anything with less than 8 people is unacceptable?

We were using SF for farming before it was maintainable. It got the job done and we could not gather every monster on the map and tank them until our fingers turned blue. Why it wasn't killed shortly after the discovery that it could be maintained indefinitely is something that always confused me. I'm all for that nerf.

The 600 on the other hand... seriously? You need 1-2 other players to make it work and even then you're a paper tank. When I have another player or a hero sucking up loot that could be mine, it's not solo farming. Do you also want to punish me for taking a full H/H group at 3am when the few friends that still play are sleeping and the outposts have 3 people that don't speak a word of english?

As for the monks that run dungeons... 30 mins with obnoxious teenagers is much better than the hour or more that you would spend with those same obnoxious teenagers in a balanced group. Besides, majority of the "runners" ask you to bring damage and/or heals. It doesn't matter if it's to kill the last few monsters, heal the smiter that has the enchants on bass ackwards, or whatever else. It's not really a run if you have to participate. Argue with me all you want, but it's pretty much paying somebody to lead the group and tank.

I've accomplished all my PvE goals and I own pretty much everything I ever dreamed of owning. I have a feeling that most of the anti-farming crowd is in the same boat. It's easier to be against something when it's of absolutely no use to you anymore, amirite? We saw the same thing happen with Ursan. People used it to accomplish their goals, and then suddenly everybody was on the "OMG Kill it with fire before other people get the titles and stuff I have!" bandwagon.

Unfortunately, the damage to the game and it's economy has been done. Unless you're planning to give us some good reasons to keep doing dungeons and elite missions, you're doing nothing more than putting a bandaid on a severely infected wound.

The rewards for doing them are far from... rewarding. Give us some real incentives for completing them. A couple of gems or greens with generic stats and skins aren't going to make anybody want to spend an hour or more of their life on a mission. You really wonder why people are favoring runners over balanced groups?

If farming is going to be frowned upon, how would you prefer that players make money? Begging? Scamming? Playing through the storyline over and over? Doing the same zquests over and over? Cage dancing in LA?

Besides the 600/smite thing, I think some of the other updates look interesting.

I really hope you know what you're doing.

Btw, this:
is going to be cute if they do it in PvE also.
It makes you wonder why they decided to do anything with hammers in that case though.

I really don't see the need to nerf OF. If it was such a "problem" it would have been getting a similar amount of criticism to SF. It's use is pretty situational and compared to SF it's practically underpowered.

Imho, and given the perception that eles are of limited support utility in HM, I can only see a nerf to OF further marginalising them. OF is a useful not an overpowered elite.

Just got my warrior out, ran a trusty hammer build over it, went out and had a plod about. Couldn't help wondering, why the hell is it again, that I'd bother using this over a scythe?

Couldn't think of many reasons. KD isn't enough reason in PvE..Not really when with w/d KD is pointless as mobs don't live long enough for it to matter whether they were KD'd when u pwned them or upright..

This buff to DBS, it's sweet, but is it really gonna be enough to make the Hammer a reason not to run W/D, W/A or any of the other WE builds? Furthermore, is the fact that it'll basically be a case of DBS or don't bother? That just looks like more /gimmick to me. I'm skeptical..Anyone else feeling this?

Good changes, I guess.

I really hope 600/smite doesn't die, because it's the only fun way to do Vanquishing, particularly as a Monk, and I haven't finished those tracks. Long way away from finishing, indeed.

Seems Awesome sofar! cant wait to see the actual update next week!

Impressed at what they are doing for the tactics line. Not excruciatingly dramatic as some ppl have requested, but a whole lot better still. Especially for Shield Stance and Soldiers Stance. One thing though is that despite these changes I don't see these competing with the warriors meta of D-slash SY builds. Unless anyone can make anything from the revamped tactics skills to match up in terms of usefulness at a high degree. I'm optimistic that it's possible, though.

A few notes:
"None Shall Pass"
Team wide runners and/or kiters ain't going to have it that easy now.

Shove
Finally! It looks like it's actually an elite skill. A Bulls Strike on steroids no less.

"Retreat!"
Might replace "Fall Back!" well enough with the added block effect. Although I have the feeling there will be paras or warriors that will bring both and use one after the other for practically 2 Fall Backs...

"To the Limit!"
I'm not so sure how much HP increase would count as modest, but if anything this could throw Endure Pain out the window and into the dump-bin.

Soldier's Stance (PvE)
Just look at it... Do I really need to say anything about it?... Fast attack along with blocking in one stance! Provided it's only for PvE.

Shield Stance
This maybe the one and only skill that will make warriors be pure warriors and not try to use secondaries at all. Could be so.

"Fear Me!"
I can't see how this can get OP for warriors. It's more like it buffed only to have it be another secondary class type skill. How? Sins.

Oh, and one more thing. Steelfang Slash possibly losing it's 1 sec recharge. For goodness sakes it's about freaking time! If they go through with this it'll make my PvE playing much more fun again. *cross fingers in hopes it will go through*

Scythe Wielding Warriors just became OP'er than Sins with the new Fear me...pending attribute point adjustment ofc. Only thing Sins had going for them was crit hits...Warriors get comparable critical hits now, but also insane AP on the spammable Power Attacks and Whirlwind Attack..so...hmm....

Seems to me ANet just wants to get rid of splits in high-end areas with the nerfbat to SF/600/OF, because honestly that's the only tactic that is going to be truly affected by the update. Apparently that's an "unacceptable" way to play the game.

While I don't mind the nerf to SF all too much, I find it kinda weird that ANet decides to tell us now that splitting is unacceptable. I mention only splitting because that's the only that is going to be truly nerfed by this update. Tank and spank will still manage to work, one way or another. It doesn't matter if the tank will need to be an ER ele with a spellbreaker casted on him, or a warrior with the new stances, but that will still be the prevailing gimmick build.

I'll say it now, I perma pretty much all the time on Guild Wars. Because of some contests, I have way more money than I can ever spend, but I still enjoy doing UW speed clears because I feel like it's the only fun thing left in Guild Wars PVE. Speedclears isn't all about farming anymore, it's more about trying to get the best times. It's almost a game within Guild Wars itself, one that takes a bit more brain than pulling with a bow, send heroes in, spamming skills, or "nuking" where you c+faceroll.

That said, I do believe SF was overpowered and needed a good nerf. I'm kind of sad to see it gone though because along with the nerf to OF/600, it means the end of splitting in PvE. I'm really going to miss that, because it means all high end pve is going to be tank and spank, which is frankly boring. I'm tired of the ball+1234. I really don't want it to come back to UW, which I'm guessing will happen. Oh well, it was fun when it lasted.



PS:
It kinda irritates me when people say NERF SF, BUT DON'T TOUCH 600. Why is this? How is 600 any better than permaing? It still allows for dungeon runnings and such, just not as fast as permaing. Is it because you think 600 takes more skill? Because it honestly doesn't. I have 600ed a lot before permaing, and I stopped because it was boring. And about the OF, if that wasn't nerfed, we woulda had a build for UWSC OFway as soon as the update was released.

LMAO is all I got to say about this prelimanary update lol.

The lack of mesmer buffs is kinda distressing...but overall this looks to be a good update, but one that shouldnt have taken as long. On the other hand, im all for killing farming, even though I was a compulsive farmer for various reasons. The thing is...drops effin suck. What used to be worth something was ground to paste(Chest of Many things and Hard Mode placing items in everyones hands). I would say to make dungeons and higher end areas more playable, just do the following:Retract that loot scaling B.S.(worst thing to happen to GW), even if its for Anti farm code again, and double the current chest drops in Dungeons(2 goes to 4, 4 to 8), give regular missions chests that spawn closer to where bonus completion would take place, and look at reducing cluster mobs in End Game areas(esp DOA) in favor of more versatile mod bars that sync.

i think that TK should learn to communicate with the playerbase. that very concern, about buffing monsters along with players, has been raised in numerous threads over guru and you tell it here as it was something we, the normal players, wouldn't even think about because it's Hard Job.
get one or two persons to read the major boards, like guru, and even reply or ask questions. gather information. see what community expects. i don't know who actually prepares skill updates now - TK, ANet or both - and to what excess, but i think that TK has a lot to say and should be more open to the playerbase, than ANet.

i've heard this very sentence dozens of times. seriously. and it usually is said by people who a) never played mesmers in end-game, b) played gimmicks for two areas and moved back to their main warrior or necromancer.
if you say that primairy mesmers aren't terrible if one knows how to use them, please use one of the mesmer threads (links posted in the fourth post in this very thread) and enlighten us how should we use our primairies.
if not, i think it's fine to disregard your mesmer-related posts in this thread.


don't get me totally wrong, it's great that an update finally comes our way. but i have to agree with Upier this time - if you have limited resources, you should distribute them amongst the most broken stuff, not buffing those that are wanted and can even easily solo vanquish (aka rits and their spirits).

Actions speaks louder than words (or in this case, the absent of actions for the past year). But we will see what next week will bring, and how you intend us to play your game.

One note for people posting in this thread - try to see the bigger picture.

It's easy to concentrate on YOUR gameplay above anything else, but that's not the point of balancing ... otherwise each of you would be playing a singleplayer game, being provided individual patches covering YOUR area of interests.

Seeing how some people arbitrarily judge the update as horrific or terribly bad with really little effort, makes me question the point of even writing such negative posts, due to very little thought process involved?

Predicting the meta is like gambling, and above all else, it's the Anet which is best at it. They created this game and they know how it works, even if the complexity of maintaining the entire balance system means intense slowdowns of balance updates or even impacts their long-term quality.

Have some understanding, really.

Especially aimed at people which no longer play the game itself, but the flaming and constant, cynical negativity has become a personal trait, if not a national sport in some cases.

take a look at the effects then. i know that not everything was given - and i underline this part - but all the discussion is based on what actually was, so...

* will hammer be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as knockdowns are still inferior to simply killing

* will tactics be viable in pve now?
- don't think so, as killing is better than 'some' use of the tactics line, and if you need support, take a paragon rather than a warrior who can achieve high DPS (therefore, choosing DPS on strength over tactics)

* will ritualists use newly buffed skills?
- maybe, but usually those that got bored with spirit spamming. and after they get their break, they will spirit spam again, just a little bit slower. n/rt abuse spreads a bit and that's actually all.

* was the ritualist buff essential?
- don't think so - even though they were 'limited' to run spirits, splinter, cast weapon spells, heal/prot or deal mid/close-range damage, they were not the most crappy class in the game. they were playable as they were, wanted in end-game pve. heck, ritualists can even use daggers for fun and they're fine.

* were the most underpowered and limited classes addressed?
- nope...


and it's not just my gameplay. give more fun and power to those already wanted in groups // having various viable builds available and don't buff the most crippled ones - all after five months - it's wasting resources.

Funny thing is that the most vocal are people no longer playing the game or playing it solo. Even if 10k players leave due to SF or 600 nerf it will be hardly noticeable by the rest. Fun update though.

Sorry,and your 4 months late (late in the month it's meant to be finished in) for that? I was expecting many more tactics and a few more hammer elite changes. Not impressed.

I assume that Test Crewe activity isn't useless, and EVEN IF hammer WON'T be as cookie-cutter as other builds, it will be made more viable. Not necessarily competitive, but more viable. I think after long years of being pretty much neglected in pve, hammer users wouldn't mind this, really ... since they already got used to the underdog/specialist mindset, where in some circumstances you are good, and in everything else, there are much better options.

Plus, it will come down to playing the game itself, and certainly not theorising how bad/cool something is.

No, Cracked Armor every time a shout or chant ends on you is far worse than -20 armor straight. Also, you have 80 + 16 + 10 armor, so even with Aggressive Refrain up you still have 86 armor.

Expect that eles are meant to be a DPS class in GW.

How so? Monsters still get bonus damage to skills for every level over 20, and bosses will still hit for double damage.

It's the basis of nearly every ele solo farm build and was used in SC before SF; if they nerf SF and leave OF as it is everybody will just switch back to it.

I agree with drkn with regards to what they change in pve also affects monsters/foes - i wonder if anyone agrees that maybe anet shud finally sort 1 skill thats been bugged for ages - chilling victory as its 2nd effect which states -
Scythe Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17...20 damage. If you targeted a foe who had less Health than you, that foe and all adjacent foes are struck for 15...51...60 cold damage.
now dont get me wrong but "if it hits" to me means it has to hit - you have sf sin , say daggers sf you take dmg when it misses is wrong and after a few yrs they still wont fix the bug or reword the skill - btw im using perma sf as a gd example but any profession with a block skill will still take 2nd dmg.

And yes a lot of us had sins before anet did their buff/nerf/buff/nerf/ slight buff and we still farmed some bosses .
Why not add to elite areas enviroment effects - most speedclears in uw/fow have maybe 1 party member who requires perm bonds/enchants and im sure enviroment effect that makes bonds/enchants harder to keep up would be better.
And im sure many will agree - wiping sf totally is bad as not every perma sin does sc/uw/fow/dungeons but may use sf outside those areas.My sins never done sc nor rampaged thru uw using perma sf to gain huge amounts of money - yes it uses perma sf for some farming and running places and i think only dungeons ive ever done was 2 - punchout and the part dungeon on the primary.
As for being able to get players using other builds and pugging - gw can be pug unfriendly.
Days of ursan you could sit in toa for eg and it would be pugs of high rank of norn only and if below r7 you had no chance.If you wanted to rep farm norn you had to be high norn rank.Least with perma sf you had an easier chance to get into a pug and do things.
And whats going to happen to vs farming with both perma sf and obby being hit - are vs spears going to rise in price as no one is going to try and farm them ? ( ive also never vs farmed ).
Are certain items going to be way above most ppls price range - obby armor you need to mortgage your gh just to afford ectos , it may even cause another influx of gold sellers as ppl will feel the need to get easy cash regardless.

Next thurs after update i`ll probably be in some district in a memorial service for all those obby eles and perma sf sins who will retire and probably never be seen again.

Thats my bit done so im going to go and setup a gw business making graves and headstones for the 2 professions above and get rich from it ( WTS tomestone and graves ) or maybe setup a nice retirement home somewhere nice - maybe in north kryta.
:P