Buffing Mesmers?
More Shame/Guilt type skills in Domination, fix energy loss (which doesn't do anything in HM), lower recharge.
More AoE in Illusion to give slowdown/weakening/denial more effect against mobs, lower recharge, more skills that break the degen cap.
More synergy from Inspiration, skills that trigger every time you interrupt/hex/use a signet/steal energy/do all those mesmer things, thus providing a bonus for mesmerizing behavior through recharge reduction/energy gain/granting energy to the party/boosting attributes, and base them off of Fast Casting to boost primaries (kind of like Glowing Gaze, etc).
More Fast Casting uberskills. A skill that eliminates aftercast delay. A skill that decreases recharge times of your skills every time you interrupt. An elite skill that spreads all hexes from the target to all adjacent targets like Epidemic (and reduces duration by a percent that decreases with FC).
Give mesmers a reason to play their normal selves by rewarding good mesmer behavior, and give the primary profession a reason that it is better than anyone else at doing its own job.
Mesmers vs Necromancers in PvE - which one needed buff?
Shriketalon
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Daft Shifty
Maybe play more before posting. A well set up mesmer would oust a generic necro in most circumstances.
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Sorry, just tired of theoretical "a skilled mesmer" "a well set mesmer hero" opinions posing as hard facts. When I asked the other guy in the other thread for his great mesmer build, he gave one with Crippling Anguish etc.
So, now I'd like to see your mesmer hero build, and what team he fits in. I bet once you're done, that NMe will use same skills better.
moriz
how to buff mesmers: make all bosses vulnerable to diversion, and remove the fast casting effect from all bosses and all creatures in hard mode, except mesmer creatures. big killer spell that can wipe the party? gone for a minute, or gets interrupted.
mission accomplished.
mission accomplished.
Cuilan
Taking away enemy fast casting would mean the synergy professions would just use Great Dwarf Weapon more. That skill is able to interrupt (knock down) more than one skill and can fit in a nicely compressed bar. It will also make spells less spammed, which would make PvE even easier.
Mantra of Recovery is already in fast casting can be changed to add an extra pip of energy. Maybe a second pip if set the fast casting is set higher. Not nearly as powerful as Assassin's Promise, but it may work. So there, an idea for the Test Krewe.
Mantra of Recovery is already in fast casting can be changed to add an extra pip of energy. Maybe a second pip if set the fast casting is set higher. Not nearly as powerful as Assassin's Promise, but it may work. So there, an idea for the Test Krewe.
Pandora's box
To make a mesmer a fully appreciated teammember he/she should do more than just interrupt. My 5 cents: Buff interrupt skills so that they also have extra benefit for the party when they succesfully interrupt. E.g. 'on succesfully interrupt heal party for X' or '- remove hex' or '- gain energy/...' or add blindness, degeneration etc. on succesfully interrupting... That sort of things would boost the Mesmer and make him/her a wanted partymember :-)
gremlin
Assumption 1 many players think DPS is the only important thing in the entire game
Assumption 2 the only consideration for the other classes is whether or not they can increase the DPS of their main character.
This in my opinion is the reason mesmers are not often used.
In fact neither class really needs much of a buff they are both well able to handle the threats of the pve environment.
If they buff necro I hope its to improve some of the little used skills so I get to try out some entirely new builds.
If they buff mesmer too much it will just make the game a walkover for those who really know how to use them.
Assumption 2 the only consideration for the other classes is whether or not they can increase the DPS of their main character.
This in my opinion is the reason mesmers are not often used.
In fact neither class really needs much of a buff they are both well able to handle the threats of the pve environment.
If they buff necro I hope its to improve some of the little used skills so I get to try out some entirely new builds.
If they buff mesmer too much it will just make the game a walkover for those who really know how to use them.
AmbientMelody
I had both primaries, but was always more committed on Necro than on Mes. I'd say Mes has tougher time and I highly despite infinite energy, ridiculous recharge and casting rate of HM mobs. It doesn't add to Mes arsenal either way, like the interrupt/shutdown builds weren't a niche already in NM. Mes certainly needs a buff, but the question is - what is there to be really buffed? Necro isn't half-bad tbh.
moriz
mesmers excel at single target shutdown via playing mindgames with that target. this is reflected in their entire skills list. they are also decent hexers, but necros have that part covered.
unfortunately, the AI do not have minds, and therefore cannot be tricked/forced. the mesmer will always be a second-rate necromancer in pve no matter what, because their core design is for screwing around with live human opponents, and there aren't any in pve. buffing skills will just make them more or less carbon copies of necromancers, in which case i'd rather they are not buffed. having this much redundancy is pointless.
unfortunately, the AI do not have minds, and therefore cannot be tricked/forced. the mesmer will always be a second-rate necromancer in pve no matter what, because their core design is for screwing around with live human opponents, and there aren't any in pve. buffing skills will just make them more or less carbon copies of necromancers, in which case i'd rather they are not buffed. having this much redundancy is pointless.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by moriz
the mesmer will always be a second-rate necromancer in pve no matter what, because their core design is for screwing around with live human opponents, and there aren't any in pve. buffing skills will just make them more or less carbon copies of necromancers
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Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by moriz
unfortunately, the AI do not have minds, and therefore cannot be tricked/forced.
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What prevents, say, Panic from sending the enemies running for the hills by switching them over to the flee state sometimes used by low level NPCs? What prevents an Elite Domination spell from turning an enemy into a temporary ally? What prevents an illusion spell like Wandering Eye from making a target hit both enemies and allies with AoE effects?
AI doesn't have a mind, but it DOES obey certain, written code. Why can't mesmers have skills that mess with the code?
shoyon456
I won't even pretend that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Mesmers, but it seems to me that Fast Casting should be looked at.
Beyond that, any suggestion I would make would be completely uneducated.
EDIT: Other ideas would be too work-intensive, such as changing whole mobs or enemy AI. I'm actually hoping for a viable skill/attribute-line fix.
Beyond that, any suggestion I would make would be completely uneducated.
EDIT: Other ideas would be too work-intensive, such as changing whole mobs or enemy AI. I'm actually hoping for a viable skill/attribute-line fix.
October Jade
Fast Casting should, at the very least, be changed to affect recharge times as well. It has the most useless inherent effect of all the primary attributes, by a large margin. Strength isn't all that great either, but that line actually has good skills to make up for it. FC is crap.
I wish this were a new idea, but it is not. People have requested such a change for years... why hasn't it ever been looked at? Make it pve-only; I don't care. As it stands, the only reason to play a primary mesmer is the clothes.
I wish this were a new idea, but it is not. People have requested such a change for years... why hasn't it ever been looked at? Make it pve-only; I don't care. As it stands, the only reason to play a primary mesmer is the clothes.
moriz
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
...........Why not?
What prevents, say, Panic from sending the enemies running for the hills by switching them over to the flee state sometimes used by low level NPCs? What prevents an Elite Domination spell from turning an enemy into a temporary ally? What prevents an illusion spell like Wandering Eye from making a target hit both enemies and allies with AoE effects? AI doesn't have a mind, but it DOES obey certain, written code. Why can't mesmers have skills that mess with the code? |
mindgames only work on intelligent/sentient opponents, which basically forces them to juggle multiple possible losses. this either puts them into a panic, or force them to make mistakes in the optimization process. this has the greatest impact when in a drawn out fight, which btw, never happens in pve.
the AI is not truly intelligent, so it's impossible to play mindgames with them. yes, you can hard code them to suddenly go haywire when some mesmer spells land on them. however, that's just plain overpowered and will break the game. not to mention, that most certainly doesn't make people take mesmer primaries, since you can easily run all this on a necromancer. fast casting is pretty pointless in pve, since you rarely run into the risk of being interrupted.
pumpkin pie
neither need buff, do not nerf them unnecessary is all i ask 
(from a PvE point of view)
(from a PvE point of view)
ValaOfTheFens
Buff Mesmers so people can stop talking about it and let the Eles have their time to whine. ^_^ The problem with PvE Mesmers is that their hex lineup just isn't as good for taking on more than one foe at a time as Necromancer hexes are. People aren't going to play or play with an inferior class just to show how pro they are and so Mesmers(and Mesmer heroes) are generally ignore. And so thats why you see all Necro hero teams rather than all Mesmer hero teams. Oh yeah and Necro heroes have built in energy management so no need to load up a skill to give you energy unless you really need to. I'm sure some guy with a kick ass Mesmer is going to yell at me for naysaying Mesmers but I've had mine for nearly 3 years and its been a mule for 2 1/2 of those years while I've played my Necro all 4 years(almost 4 years anyway) I've been playing GW.
market
I have mesmer and its one of my best pve chars... ppl who qq about mesmers just cant do builds without pvxwiki
Chasing Squirrels
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Originally Posted by market
I have mesmer and its one of my best pve chars... ppl who qq about mesmers just cant do builds without pvxwiki
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Owik Gall
Not sure if either one needs a buff (they are great compared to dervs with their obvious issues) I find both classes useful in their own way. If I have to choose, then maybe Mes. Only reason is because it would spark ridicules if necro gets buffed. Majority of meta caster builds have Necro secondaries and a buff would only fuel that fire. In other words, buffing necro would only benefit all the other classes except necro primes.
LONGA
Mesmers handdown.Because there is no shutdown build for Mesmer that can handle most situation.Mes need more skill to put in a bar to run efficiently.
A change in Fast casting line skill that provide some energy management would be nice so Mes can break away from Dom+Ins or Ill+Ins skill set.
A change in Fast casting line skill that provide some energy management would be nice so Mes can break away from Dom+Ins or Ill+Ins skill set.
zhongzh
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Originally Posted by moriz
how to buff mesmers: make all bosses vulnerable to diversion, and remove the fast casting effect from all bosses and all creatures in hard mode, except mesmer creatures. big killer spell that can wipe the party? gone for a minute, or gets interrupted.
mission accomplished. |
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Pandora's Box
Buff interrupt skills so that they also have extra benefit for the party when they succesfully interrupt.
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Originally Posted by gremlin
Assumption 1 many players think DPS is the only important thing in the entire game
Assumption 2 the only consideration for the other classes is whether or not they can increase the DPS of their main character. This in my opinion is the reason mesmers are not often used. |
Assumption 3: gremlin understand the game
You tell us what is important in the game then, how fast you can drain monster energy? Mesmers win hand's down.
Oh wait, mission failed.
Go do Vizunah square hard mode with a mesmer build that you're pretending is important, and then do Vizunah HM with a necro. Good luck getting masters with a mesmer if you're going to spend 5 min on each mob, casting migraine, or perhaps energy draining, or blackouting.
Necro can block better than mesmer, that's a fact and sad one at that. There's a reason why people take curse necro with Enfeebling etc instead of Mesmer with Ineptitude. [/b]Even mesmer henchman is using a necro skill ![/b]
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO...
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by The Josip
Go do Vizunah square hard mode with a mesmer build that you're pretending is important, and then do Vizunah HM with a necro. Good luck getting masters with a mesmer if you're going to spend 5 min on each mob, casting migraine, or perhaps energy draining, or blackouting.
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You see, mine wasn't even a well optimized team (2 Eles, 3 Monks). I never found myself spending 5 minutes on anything...
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by market
I have mesmer and its one of my best pve chars... ppl who qq about mesmers just cant do builds without pvxwiki
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upier
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Never been to hard mode, huh?
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But mostly on the first one.
miriforst
i agree on that arenanet seems to think that powercreep is ftw
the problem is high-end, which is where everyone plays nowadays and using interrupts, even tease and cof in places like uw when the dryders now spawns as hoardes and it looks like it would be the ideal situation for for it, it fails because of long recharges and the fact that there is rarely situations where you encounter enemies with only one powerfull key skill, and that dosent shrug with its shoulder after a interrupt and then continues to smack your face.
except when facing foes such as kanaxai who "hints" a bit theres no reason of bringing those tons of enchantement removal skills (both elites and normal).
they may be niche in pvp but is unplayable in pve.
okay, shatter enchantement, but what with shatter storm, air of disenchantement and you name it.
they are godlike in pvp using skills such as *cough* visions of regret *cough* but could deserve more utility such as daze and other conditions to full take advantage of skills like extend conditions and fevered dreams.
i have played FD in pvp and found its aoe blind and dazed when used with glyph of imolation and steam highly amusing, but its realy odd to see a lot of mesmer skills relying on conditions (ofc sec proffesion buildwars) when they themselves have only deep wound (2 skills) and cracked armor (after a 10 sec hex) but is hard to combine for the short daze "wildfire".
the problem is high-end, which is where everyone plays nowadays and using interrupts, even tease and cof in places like uw when the dryders now spawns as hoardes and it looks like it would be the ideal situation for for it, it fails because of long recharges and the fact that there is rarely situations where you encounter enemies with only one powerfull key skill, and that dosent shrug with its shoulder after a interrupt and then continues to smack your face.
except when facing foes such as kanaxai who "hints" a bit theres no reason of bringing those tons of enchantement removal skills (both elites and normal).
they may be niche in pvp but is unplayable in pve.
okay, shatter enchantement, but what with shatter storm, air of disenchantement and you name it.
they are godlike in pvp using skills such as *cough* visions of regret *cough* but could deserve more utility such as daze and other conditions to full take advantage of skills like extend conditions and fevered dreams.
i have played FD in pvp and found its aoe blind and dazed when used with glyph of imolation and steam highly amusing, but its realy odd to see a lot of mesmer skills relying on conditions (ofc sec proffesion buildwars) when they themselves have only deep wound (2 skills) and cracked armor (after a 10 sec hex) but is hard to combine for the short daze "wildfire".
aspi
It might be a good idea for the dev team to team up with some of the high end pve/pvp guild to learn some things about the game they make. Looks like it wouldn't hurt tp see why some professions are not used there.
I can see how balancing these kind of things is probably one of the most difficult parts of the game, and maybe they can learn a few things for the next game
I can see how balancing these kind of things is probably one of the most difficult parts of the game, and maybe they can learn a few things for the next game
Essence Snow
Really enjoying this thread! Mesmer's trying to have a voice and a few ppl kicking them while they are down. While yes mesmers and dervs can complete the game, they both depend more on team set up than individual set up. I.E. your build doesnt really matter b/c your team (with h/h or ppl) can do it just the same w/o you. I love my mesmer...not b/c she is balanced/fun to play/casts fast.....but b/c she has max armor panties. I mean what else is she good for? It's widely accepted that mesmers are the black sheep of PvE. I just find it funny while they run the race in last place a few bystanders spit on them. For what reason idk, maybe they have other issues and are displacing their feelings on mesmers.
drkn
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| Sorry, but my Mesmer is Legendary Guardian, every mission bar the Eternal Grove done H/H. Never used any of the common team builds around: just went out with an average Fire Ele (Sousuke), a Minion Bomber (Olias) and a simple WoH hybrid monk (Dunkoro). Hencies usually being one of the Warriors available, the Earth Ele when available and 2 more Monks. That's with the good 'ol henchies bars. Never had a problem. |
i've managed to kill mallyx with just one another player and six heroes. i've been on the mesmer. the sad thing is - i had NO mesmer skill on my tab, but used three pve skills and imitated an elementalist (wards for def, meteor & maelstrom for interrupts - cause it's easier to interrupt as an ele than as a mesmer). and to be clear - i've tried to use several various builds that included being mesmery there, all of them were either useless or inferior to going /ele option.
mesmer females have the best looking armors in the game, imho, but that's all they are better at.
enter_the_zone
Mesmers clearly needed buffing more than necros.
That said, in terms of heroes, VoR + 5 interrupts (2 of which are also e-mgmt) + 1 e-mgmt + fast cast rez is better in HM than SS necro.
That said, in terms of heroes, VoR + 5 interrupts (2 of which are also e-mgmt) + 1 e-mgmt + fast cast rez is better in HM than SS necro.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by drkn
it's because typical pve content, even hm, is easy as hell. especially with heroes and pve skills.
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What's the problem with Mesmers then? They rule PvP and PvE is easy as hell whatever your profession is.
Is this just a matter of "big numbers" again?
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Never been to hard mode, huh?
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drkn
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What's the problem with Mesmers then? They rule PvP and PvE is easy as hell whatever your profession is. Is this just a matter of "big numbers" again? |
cthulhu reborn
I just feel that mesmer heroes specifically in HM get targetted very quickly and have too little defense to deal with that added attention from enemy mobs. So they die too quickly really.
They can do some good interrupting but then so can rangers and at least they have better armour and such. Not saying a mesmer is all bad at all but to reduce a mesmer to an interrupter only I think would make the class superfluous as rangers can interrupt more than plenty.
I would think that mesmers need to have more of a view over the whole enemy party to be really effective. This is something the AI doesn't really do that well with. Sure a mesmer can shut down an enemy ele for some time but when there are 3 enemy eles then what?
In that sense a mesmer is better as a player where the necro's are better heroes. Still, blood magic needed fixing and I think that is an easier fix than messing with the mesmer line ups.
They can do some good interrupting but then so can rangers and at least they have better armour and such. Not saying a mesmer is all bad at all but to reduce a mesmer to an interrupter only I think would make the class superfluous as rangers can interrupt more than plenty.
I would think that mesmers need to have more of a view over the whole enemy party to be really effective. This is something the AI doesn't really do that well with. Sure a mesmer can shut down an enemy ele for some time but when there are 3 enemy eles then what?
In that sense a mesmer is better as a player where the necro's are better heroes. Still, blood magic needed fixing and I think that is an easier fix than messing with the mesmer line ups.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by drkn
read topics about mesmers again, slowly and carefully this time. it WAS pointed out many times what's wrong with them and that it's NOT about damage. you're just another person ignoring everything that doesn't fit your way of thinking and i won't repeat everything here yet again, sorry - if you want to participate in a discussion regarding something, first get some knowledge of the topic.
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Second: calm down
Third: read the whole thread you've probably skipped just because you think you're right and no one else is - I've replied more than once and I've been pretty clear so far, and, how ironic, we probably agree about this topic. If there's anyone "ignoring everything that doesn't fit his way of thinking", that's you.
Fourth: Learn to read better, since you obviously misuderstood my post. I'll try rephrasing my last message you didn't bother reading, maybe you'll get it this time. If PvE is that "easy", as everyone says, than why bothering? Any class would equally go through anything with ease and there shouldn't be a problem with Mesmers. But there obviously is. PvE being "easy" isn't an excuse for classes being subpar and not getting attention.
Smarty
It's not hard to go through PvE and get GWAMM on a mesmer, particularly if hero/henching or going with friends/guildies. It *is* hard to carry on beyond Legendary Guardian/Vanquisher and do high-end PvE on said mesmer, or to get into a PUG for ZQs etc on one.
Yelling @ Cats
Fast Casting should work as an Expertise, lowering energy cost for MESMER skills.
Alternatively, it should decrease the recharge of MESMER skills along with casting time.
Alternatively, it should decrease the recharge of MESMER skills along with casting time.
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
You see, mine wasn't even a well optimized team (2 Eles, 3 Monks). I never found myself spending 5 minutes on anything...
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Also, what mesmer build did you use? Post one.
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| Sorry, but my Mesmer is Legendary Guardian |
What I'm trying to say is, you can finish any mission by taking empty skillbar and just letting your HH do everything. It does not tell anything about how good mesmer is comparable to other classes.
You're simply taking a flawed principle:
Your mesmer vs mission: your mesmer wins, ergo mesmer is fine.
The rest of us are doing:
Mesmer vs ProfessionX: ProfessionX does it better, ergo mesmer isn't fine.
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Originally Posted by Enter the zone
That said, in terms of heroes, VoR + 5 interrupts (2 of which are also e-mgmt) + 1 e-mgmt + fast cast rez is better in HM than SS necro.
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2. NMe interrupt build will do better than Me interrupt build. Try it. ANYTHING YOU CAN DO...
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by The Josip
You're simply taking a flawed principle:
Your mesmer vs mission: your mesmer wins, ergo mesmer is fine. |
I made it multiple times, often with sub-optimal setups. Just that. That's because Mesmers are just fine at most of the things you can do in this game. They're admitedly subpar, often "barely average", but nowhere "not fine".
That doesn't mean Mesmers couldn't use a buff.
PS - While I'm all for more fairness, this bias toward "efficiency" is getting my nerves. Heck, this is a game. Try playing just for fun once in a while.
The Josip
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
No, I was just replying to you spending 5 minutes killing anything while failing @ getting Masters in Vizunah Square.
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| They're admitedly subpar, often "barely average" |
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| PS - While I'm all for more fairness, this bias toward "efficiency" is getting my nerves. Heck, this is a game. Try playing just for fun once in a while. |
Fun? No, not really.
Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by The Josip
Efficient is fun. Take a ranger and put all nature rituals on your skillbar. Then each time you fight a mob spend 5 minutes casting those spirits which.. won't do much.
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Why is it that they increased the spirit summoning capabilities of the ritualist, decreased cast times across the board, buffed levels, gave them new effects......but all the ranger spirits still fail?
Can we add Nature Rituals to the Great Big List Of Things That Fail And Need Attention? Barrage alone shouldn't be the only things rangers can do.