Mesmers vs Necromancers in PvE - which one needed buff?

They fail more from the nature of their effects than cast time and the like, the fact that they help or harm both friend and foe. The aspects they are useful in, they're perfectly good as they are (EoE, QZ, FS, that sort of thing).

I like how you made a complaint thread without making it seem like you were complaining. :|

Mesmers are underpowered so we should give them two primary attributes?

Fix skills.
*Mesmer/Dervish/Ranger walks into DoA/ToA/almost any other elite area*
"hay gaiz! can i join ur group?? itll b fun!!"
"No," says everyone.

The end.

Moral of the story: You can't H/H everywhere and other people generally want to be as efficient as possible.
Nature rituals are great when you want to screw over your own team or if you just want to be completely f*cking useless.
And they can't even barrage as well as rits.
Also, the effects revolve aroud stuff like energy denial (stuff in HM has infinite energy) and condition spreading/enhancing (lol). It's fine if they affect everything, but the effects should be something that players can use to their advantage (EoE and winter, for example).

But these are complaints for another thread.

So the PvP/PvE split isn't enough for you, and you want a PvE/PvP mechanic split as well? Sounds like swatting a fly with a hammer to me.

It's absolutely true that there is nothing a Mesmer can do with standard (non-PvE-only) skills that another class cannot do better.

It does not follow from this premise that it is worth the devs' time to undertake the tricky balance problem of bringing the Mesmer up to par with other classes. Mesmers have been terrible in PvE for a long, long time. In a very real sense, if you are playing a Mesmer in PvE then you are entirely to blame for choosing to play an underpowered class.

There is a strong argument to be made that the general community's interest in not having an obscenely OP class outweighs the interest of a small but vocal minority's interest in having their Mesmer be a viable elite area PuG option. If you really want to play your Mesmer in an elite area and you are skilled enough to merit taking your play skill but gimped class over other alternatives, there are plenty of quality teams out there that will let you take your Mesmer. But it's on you to find those teams, and to develop sufficient skill to merit taking you.

For instance, we used to run a trapper in the Deep back during Factions when it was all Eles and Necros for damage. But we took the trapper because he was exceptionally good, meaning the team didn't feel the loss of an Ele much and he didn't do the stupid things that PuG eles sometimes did.

Just for sake of debate: So it should be the only PvP only class? Why even have a PvE version of this prof if you will be seen as incompetent by all other profs b/c you chose to play it.
The problem here is not friend/guild/alliance group but PuGs since they have no prior knowledge of abilities. You have about the same chance to get in an elite area HM PuG as a snowball in hell. As a mesmer it is hard to even find PuGs for ZM or ZB much less elite areas.

Bad players will automatically presume you are incompetent. Good players will realize that your choice to play Mesmer is a signal that suggests you are bad but is not conclusive. Mesmer is playable but suboptimal. A "good" player that plays a lot and succeeds would therefore likely not choose to play Mesmer. But good unique snowflake builds and players do exist, and conversation is usually a better tool for figuring out whether or not a prospective PuG is going to stink than the signal sent by the class that was chosen.

Again, you chose to play a class that cannot PuG those areas. That's a decision you made up front. It's been well established for a very long time that Mesmer is not a "good" PvE primary.

To reiterate: the implicit thesis in the argument that Mesmers need a buff is that doing so is a valuable use of the devs' time. There are some problems with that argument. The downside risk of screwing up the buff is high, and alternative uses for the devs' time exist that would positively affect more players. The second point means that it makes sense to first buff classes that people already play. The first point argues against bothering at all.

It's reasonable to suppose that the devs will get to the project of buffing Mesmer eventually, but "eventually" in modern GW terms could be a while.

I would have to say Mesmers need the most help. I play every class and consistently the mesmers have the hardest time finding a PUG for anything. I actually have two mesmers that I used to play quite a bit with but with all the skill changes and nerfs to the skills I used one became a mule and the other I just don't play much anymore because of the PUG situation. I would love for a change. Heck i don't even use her to farm anymore which is sad.

On the other hand I have no problem getting a group with my necro because they have a good deal of flexibility from MM, to hex/conditions, to support battery, to even healing. I guess there will always be a stigma with the mesmers that I am not sure can be changed unless they completely buff a few skills to make it on par with the shadow form sin. I remember when sins couldn't get a group either now every group has a ton of sins and it seems most of them are kids or people that just want to run shadow form to screw everything up.

To be honest I do not see much of a future for the mesmers as I have always looked at it as a thinking person's class and most people don't want to play with that much patience or attention especially at this stage in the game where it seems very few people actually play the game and just rely on runs.

I'm looking to get back in the game (PvE only) and I have always been in love with the Mesmer skillset. Unfortunately, I think I'd rather roll a N/Me for soul reaping energy benefit than Me/N for fast casting benefit and having runes for my primary attributes. Fast casting is next to useless in PvE, and mesmer skills don't have enough synergy among the various attribute skillsets that I have incentive to invest heavily into them.

The best way to fix Mesmer PvE is to either modify Fast Casting or to create significant synergies amongst the various mesmer attribute lines to encourage heavy investment of attribute points into Dom/Ill/Insp/FC.

Some ppl choose to play mesmer b/c they have already played the other classes to boredom. Others choose to experience all aspects of a game and so play every profession. On creating my 9th char it was either mesmer or dervish. Dervs really stinking....I choose mesmer. After playing out my mesmer I created a dervish......whole other problem class. Basically I play all professions to mix it up. This breaks up the monotany (sp?) of a game that is in it's latter years.

I know there r those whom chose mesmer as their primary character. For those...I think they might have wished to read that thread on "Things you wished u knew starting out in GW" or have had a disclamer "Mesmers are about the worst class for PvE" on the charater creation screen. But, by the time you learn these things in game...chances r you have become commited to that character.
Its all basically about favortism. Having been on the short end of the stick ppl will tend to cry out for equal opportunity. Those being favored will mainly not want to share what they have become accustomed to. The world is not fair...it still doesn't mean it's right.

I like how you ask an unbias question but then vehemently argue that the mesmer is weaker. You trick people into looking at your thread thinking it's unbias but then you push your agenda on them. This doesn't prove your point, it only pisses people off.

It's hard to blame him given the state of the media these days. He's getting bombarded with messages suggesting the method you describe is how you make an argument.

If you want to blame someone, blame Reagan. He's the reason the Fairness Doctrine did not persist.

I'd take a Mes hero long before I took a War,Sin, Derv or Ele - that puts them right around the middle of the pack. It has nothing to do with the strength of the classes (well except for the ele who gets boned by their lack of armour ignoring damage) and everything to do with the AI's ability to manage a skillbar, energy and position.

The way I see it of the reason why most ppl would say Mes instead of Necro should get buffed is because Mes demands expertise. It takes skill to use that class into full potential which can be a shut down class, given that you cast at the right times on the right target. The fall back is that the spells must concentrate on only one target and the recharges gives enough time for the target to recover, should it survive. Concept plays out in both PvE and PvP. Overall, the only ones I saw that have a problem with this are those who can't pull it off as a mes. If that's the case, than that's just poor play. One of the classes draw backs is it has less defensive skills than other classes. This may help look like the class needs a buff.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If skill makes a mesmer competitive, on par in high end HM areas, then demonstrations must be made. First of all, detail a build. Second, detail exactly how it is used, in what party, and how the mesmer pulls equal or greater weight than another class running a build to suit the same purpose.

In turn, you assertion will be invalid if it can be shown that another class can do the same job better, with less skill slots, less time, or with greater effect.


Handwaving away the mesmer problem with "everyone who thinks they are underpowered is unskilled" is not a valid argument. Such an assertion has to be proven, otherwise it is merely elitist folly.

In that case I got some PvP to do. Ugh... Not more of JQ, Aspen, and (most of all) Guild Battles again! (along with other PvP matches)... Sheesh. If I can, I'll come back to this once I get screen caps, build temps, and comparison examples. Right after I get some headache meds.

And while you are at it, please use a video camera hooked up to your speakers so we can get live feed, along with commentary people in your party who are on vent to accurately rate your mesmer's performance in real time, according to in depth, logical analysis with a double-blind team using the exact same setup, sans mesmer, running alongside.

Science and logic require commitment!

Ditto.

Exactly what I wanted to say. If only people started looking more for "fun" and less for "efficiency", there would be place for any profession in any group.

I never had a problem playing my Mesmer in elite areas. That's because I don't PuG and play with friends who actually have a brain.

please change the manuscripts accordingly. please note that explicitly on the official wiki. please warn newcomers beforehand.
because, seriously, not every new player reads through whole guru just to pick a char. he rather takes a brief look at skills, tries to imagine them in the field and reads guides to playing xyz. and, well, a newbie has no idea that mesmers suck. seriously.

Mesmers don't suck!

When will people realize that "being subpar" ≠ "sucking"?

Also, by looking at the number of PvE Mesmers around, I guess newbies have realized that by now...

And when will people realize that on Guru, "being subpar" is mostly expressed with the term "to suck".

I chose a class that was deemed "harder to learn" when I started playing four years ago, not one that was deemed "not a good PvE primary". It's four years' worth of skill updates that have left the mesmer weaker than other professions which have made my main unwanted, not my initial choice of profession nor my ability to play the game.

As for the rest of your post... again, I hope your view doesn't reflect that of the devs.

I see.

Where in the forum rules is this?

"We can bend the language to our own will and then get nitpicking about Martin Kerstein's spelling"

So ok, Mesmers suck. There are professions who suck big time compared to the Mesmer and don't get such a thread.

So mesmers "suck".

Eles are useless in HM, therefore useless.

Paras have a single build they can decently run.

W have 2 attributes in reworks as they were useless.

Rt was completely useless until the recent spirit buff and they try now to address further issues with them.

Sins are only good for SF farms.

Rangers are underpowered as everyone in this thread complains.

Dervs can't even use a Scythe as well as other classes do and in general they're subpar in PvE.

So... besides Mo and N does anything work in PvE? GW must be a pretty terrible PvE game

Right, and you forgot that Monks are useless beside 600/Smite (which is being nerfed), since N/Rts are oh-so-better healers.

So basically, the one and only decent profession left in Guild Wars is the Necro. It's not great, it's "decent", because we're on Guru.

Silly me thinking the other professions were fine while the Necro was overpowered, I must have missed something...

I now see the point with SF and speed clears.

That about sums it up. Although you should add W back in there, tbh - it was only tactics and hammers that weren't good; axe and sword, plus weapons from other classes, make warriors extremely strong in PvE.

EDIT:

My bad, you're quite correct!

Hammers? Really?

Hello?

Well, I was going by ANet's apparent belief that hammers weren't too good in PvE, see the update notes. My husband takes Jora with him as a hammer warrior and she does just fine IMO, but hey ANet is god here and if they think hammers need a buff for PvE then who am I to argue?

To quote Yunior from Diaz's The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, "Negro, please."

It was tactical maneuver, carefully made to prevent thread lock So instead of complaint I started a discussion which is a complaint at the same time

Actually, I'm probably one of those who think Mesmer primary attribute even in PvE is more or less ok, the problem with it is this:

1. Since Prophecies, other classes got cast-time reduction on many of their skills. Mostly ele. This was indirect nerf to FC.

2. FC skills are trash, especially in PvE. I would have to think really hard to find attribute line in the entire game which has worse skills. Even Mantra of Recovery is 3x worse than Assassin's Promise and unless you're using 2+ energy gain skills, you will probably be out of energy most of the time which makes that skill pointless. Anything you can do... with it, NMe will do better.

You read too many New Age books. Bias is a great thing in a proper place and time. When you see a girl getting raped, go on and be unbiased, just neutrally observe.

I am biased towards skill balance, and if you consider mesmers anything but inferior you'll have to come up with some arguments. New Age opinionating won't do much.

Owik Gall
Profession: WMo (from guru profile)

Another one who doesn't play a mesmer and thinks that this class magically becomes super-strong in the hand of a superhuman player which still did not appear on the face of the Earth. Earth to Supermesmer, do you read?

Look mister WMo, some of the people in this thread are among top 5% mesmer players when it comes to skill. What you're saying is that a shovel is just as balanced a weapon as a rifle, because in hands of a good soldier the shovel will be equally good. That's so out of touch with reality.

So it's ok that some professions are fun to play and strong, but mesmers have to be sucky and fun? Is that it? I thought so.
Minion master can be fun to play, and is insanely powerful. Mesmer can be fun to play, and suck. Result: let's buff necros even more.

This is what we're talking about here.

So if you were skill balancer, would you buff necros even more, or look into other professions you consider weaker overall?

That's what we're talking about here.

Whatever, we've proved that Mesmers suck, but then again, most classes do. So this thread is pointless, unless we turn it into "Why aren't all classes absurdly overpowered?"

Actually this thread has a point.
And it's point is pretty much in it's thread title - when you have some classes that are absurdly overpowered, why are these guys still getting better?

Simple.

Blood needed a buff. That buff was easy to implement and took little effort and resources -> it was implemented

Mesmers desperately need a buff. That buff is pretty much impossible to implement without either turning the game upside-down or entirely reworking the profession -> any buff is being postponed

How's that hard to understand? The logic is: as long as Mesmers are playable, such a BIG change can wait. Mesmers don't suck, Mesmers are absolutely playable, they are just inferior to Necros. Like, well, every class in the game.

I'd love a buff, but won't whine if it doesn't come. I'd rather get better people to play with in the meanwhile.

But there is a "slight" difference between a crappy attribute line for a class that is one of the best options in PvE already, compared to a class with ALL it's attribute lines sucking.
And not only that - they decided that in a game where melee physicals are pretty much as good as it gets, that this game needs to see buffs to another melee weapon AND a line that buffs weapons. And while we are at it - throw in an overpowered Ancestors' (that is in the same line as Splinter) also.

When a developer has limited resources, spending them on options that already come on top is a waste.


EDIT:
And let's not forget. This "minor" change took ... what .... a few months to be implemented?
When changes take this long to happen, you don't waste even MORE time by taking on other issues that will push the big issues even further back.

Hyuck hyuck.
The order is like this.
1. Play the game.
2. Talk about it.
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

I would, because it takes only several seconds of unbiased observing to figure out what's going on, after which I can still decide to kick the guy in the head. It's better than killing him first, and THEN learning that he's her boyfriend and she just likes a good rough red-engine-going.

FC nuker and certain interrupt builds are good in NM. In HM, interrupting is way too hard, and going Me/E leaves you without AoE cracked armor. The latter shouldn't be any reason for concern; you're not SUPPOSED to nuke with a secondary Ele. The former... Whoever it was that said the faster cast speed of monsters in HM should be toned down probably posted the best idea in the thread so far.

On a somewhat related topic, I'd still like to see Fast Casting affect aftercast delay.

I sense a Sarcasm Detector failing hard here.

My only sarcasm detector broke on the second day of my browsing of INTERNET and since then I realized it's pointless to get a new one.

But if warriors are so good why is everyone and their mother running around with 3 necro heroes

If Anet would only bring back Mantra of Celerity, things would be much better for mesmers.

Why people think that buffing mesmers will be gamebreaking is beyond me, there won't be mesmers faliing from the trees and jumping on you from the fridge, there won't be groups calling for mesmers etc. Mesmer class is such subpar in pve that generall buff will just make playing mesmers more pleasing and meaningful.

Mesmer was considered an unacceptable alternative for group PvE farming by the time Sorrow's Furnace rolled out, and SF was the first time that team farming produced superior results to solo play. Even by then, it was clear that Ele and Necro were much better at putting things on the ground, and that if you wanted to disrupt a target Ranger was superior. A Ranger can provide single target shutdown and also dish out AoE damage when needed with the same bar.

There was never a slot in a popular PvE team build for a Mesmer, and even with Cry of Pain it was obvious that you were better off with an Ele's larger energy pool or a Necro's ability to replenish energy without spending skill slots.

The root problem is Fast Casting. but reworking the mechanic simply isn't an option due to the implications for PvP. The only proper point of attack is the skills, but how do you propose to provide Mesmer with spammable AoE damage without making the class overpowered? If you bring the damage of the class up to par with the Ele, then there is no reason to take an Ele because the Mesmer can spend a slot or two on highly efficient disruption unavailable to an Ele without weakening the bar.