Mesmer Speculation - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

agrios

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

South America

Naked Stalkers of America[Nude]

W/

18 Apr 2010 at 00:05 - 241

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If you browsed the previous pages you'd read that turning them into just damage dealers won't help them if they're not he best at it, just damage doesn't fix the more unique parts of a mesmer, etc. Mesmers should have an option do do decent damage, though...

Interrupts to gain energy would be awful and makes me wonder if you use a mesmer in PvE, Agrios.

Maybe try replying to those posts and ignore the Upier party above.

Im not suggesting to turn them into damage dealers, this role is well served by other classes.

IMHO, Mesmers should be, primary disablers, but the Necs Curses line took a lot of good spells that could fit better into the Mesmer concept.

Mesmers simply own at PVP, but, in PVE theres a lot more targets with a lot more health.

They simply cant keep it up toe to toe with the other classes. Despite the fact of they having some good armor ignoring skills, their mana pool is kinda small to enable them to spread the love all over the mobs

Interrupts to gain energy maybe not the brighest idea, I agree.

But I still think they need better options to energy management.

Spirit of Failure, for example, could use a rework, maybe spreading to other two adjacent targets and having a shorter cast time. To compensate, each target loses just one energy point. Then, move it to fast casting to avoid being used by secondary mesmers.

Yes, I do have a PVE Mesmer, and also toons for every class but monk and rit. And the observations I did was based in my personal experience. I love playing my mez, but she burns mana like theres no tomorrow.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

18 Apr 2010 at 00:19 - 242

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

not for discord. and not that discord from pvx, changed 11 hero skills total. i find it more stable and faster than the original, allowing me to easily vq or do most missions, or farm glint's, in one build.
too bad it's boring.

Pain Inverter is nice with minions, but it won't help you kill a lot of foes. It's also reactive while AP wants you to kill now at gun point shooting everyone in the head before they can react. It conflicts.

You have 4 energy skills with one being Ether Signet...? And while you have synergy with Fragility, the bar itself isn't very potent compared to other AP bars.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

18 Apr 2010 at 00:23 - 243

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

How is making the game funner to yourself shooting yourself in the foot?

Because it's not fun. May be to some, not to others.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

18 Apr 2010 at 00:27 - 244

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because it's not fun. May be to some, not to others.

Your just now getting this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

However my point to upier was if he finds the game too easy maybe he should stop using iWin builds and try something that's harder to win with. For example actually try winning in Pve with shut down, not using SY, SoS, only using one healer, or hell dare I say something thats actually FUN to use. If thats the problem its really that easy to fix for him. Plus since he does things H/Hway hes in total control of how easy or how hard the game is.

You don't have a point, you're just posting to post.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

18 Apr 2010 at 00:33 - 245

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

You don't have a point, you're just posting to post.

Once more, incorrect:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm only saying that taking the stance of "don't like it don't use it" is incredibly shallow and overall subjective. In a nutshell it's simply saying "pretend it's good", and if I could do that I'd never be bored of any game, no matter how bad it actually is.

Obviously most people can't really do this, hence why I consider the stance moot.

See, I can do this game too : )

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

18 Apr 2010 at 00:41 - 246

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Once more, incorrect:

See, I can do this game too : )

So just because a skill is OP means you have to use it? Thats whats shallow, not choosing not to use skills you find to be OP and game breaking /rolleyes

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

18 Apr 2010 at 00:48 - 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

So just because a skill is OP means you have to use it?

Simply put, that's not what I said. Nor was it implied.

Turbo Ginsu

I despise facebook

Join Date: Feb 2008

Australia

Meeting of the Lost Minds

Me/

18 Apr 2010 at 04:22 - 248

So my question remains unanswered..Guess I have to ask it again.

Is what mesmers have atm, going to be broken in the name of them being reshaped to what the TK and Live Team decide is best for us? If not, great. -But- If stuff we're using now (Some of us actually enjoy some of those builds) is going to be broken to make way for the "New and Improved" Mesmers, then I hold forth the argument that what was previously said about aNet not tailoring the game to the elite players, is BS. Why do I say that? Easy really. There is no way an average Joe would get onto the TK. By definition it is a role that relies on elite levels of knowledge, in almost every conceivable way.

You can't find balance unless you know enough about a game to know where that balance point should lie. You can't balance skills unless you know what those skills are and what they synergize with, or equally important, what they don't. Etc. That being the case, if everything is tailored to what those 2 Elite groups think is right, then as I said, it was a lie, and the game is tailored for the elite players, not the plebs.

Basically, I'm not saying that the TK and Live Team don't know what they're doing, on the contrary, I think they do. What I'm saying, no asking, is simple:

Are our current builds going to be destroyed for a bunch of what at this stage are merely projections, that the general community may not like as much overall? I'm really looking forward to this update, but not at the cost of the things that already do work.

Turbo.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

18 Apr 2010 at 06:18 - 249

I wonder how well the Test Krewe is in touch with the more "meta" builds mesmers do have, if you want to call them that. As in do they know their strengths and weaknesses not to screw them up? My guess is no, nope, and no. Will mesmers get new builds? ...?

Lakdav

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2008

Me/N

18 Apr 2010 at 07:21 - 250

Buffing up some disabling skills for PvE would be nice, diversion-style or e-denial. It is the mesmer's role after all, and mesmers even have skills that benefit from foes being disabled (Wastrel category). Now all you need is linking these changes to FC kinda like glowing ele skills and e_storage, and every1 is happy. Thats my utopic idea.

dagrdagaz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2010

NL

E/N

18 Apr 2010 at 10:09 - 251

My mesmer char has 0 points in FC and uses as much as possible damage skills.
Faster casting may be usefull in HM, but for NM i see no value in it.
Players r worse at using interupt skills, so i dont use those.
That is not what a Mesmer (player char) should be, simply damage dealing.

Ok, unlikely new skills will be made.
Create a (short lived) duplicate of yerself (or spirit, or whatever) that foes start attacking. Could be a nice defense skill.

Or a hex, that foes start attacking the foe with that hex (or make the foe an ally for a short duration).

Or a short duration AoE blind or dazed skill.
A short AoE Dazed is nice for large groups of casters, to counter their best spells they usually start with.
Somthing like Technobable, but not PvE-only, perhaps no damage or longer recharge time to make it not to powerfull.

Stuff like that, disrupting, confusing, disorientating (attacking) foes.

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

18 Apr 2010 at 10:11 - 252

Quote:

Pain Inverter is nice with minions, but it won't help you kill a lot of foes. It's also reactive while AP wants you to kill now at gun point shooting everyone in the head before they can react. It conflicts.

do bosses ring a bell? they usually go faster with PI on them than without.
it's still useful to PI an ele while AP-discording other mobs.

Quote:

You have 4 energy skills with one being Ether Signet...?

gotta change that one, but overall, it's in case AP get's stripped without me noticing it. or my energy gets burned.

Quote:

And while you have synergy with Fragility, the bar itself isn't very potent compared to other AP bars.

fragility = cheap aoe cover hex for PI and AP.

i think you didn't get the idea of how exactly the bar works and you just criticised it because it's different than many others you might have seen up to this point. but believe me, with alternated discord and henchmen from any location, i'm able to roll through most of the content. no duo-discord or changing builds accordingly to location required (unless it's DoA).

but i don't think that variety of discord and discord calling builds is the topic here. feel free to create a new thread if you're so concerned regarding this issue.

Quote:

Are our current builds going to be destroyed for a bunch of what at this stage are merely projections, that the general community may not like as much overall? I'm really looking forward to this update, but not at the cost of the things that already do work.

that's a good question actually. mesmers have some useful skills that might get broken in the whole process.
still, i think i'd prefer them to fully rework mesmers to finally be comparable and competitive rather than leave some of the old builds at the cost of updating the class.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

18 Apr 2010 at 10:18 - 253

[/quote]Mesmers simply own at PVP[/quote]

lmao you seem to think Mesmers are the only ones who can interupt and degen. lmao My ranger would pulverize your Mesmer. My sin as well.

Evil_Necro

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

川崎区、日本

currently guildless..

Rt/

18 Apr 2010 at 14:02 - 254

I hope the buff is significant enough such as the changes to hammer line..

Change Mesmer so that it can manipulate time! hehehe.. oh well, one can think out of the box.. >_>

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

18 Apr 2010 at 14:15 - 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

lmao you seem to think Mesmers are the only ones who can interupt and degen. lmao My ranger would pulverize your Mesmer. My sin as well.

Interuptting is only a small part of what mesmers do in Pvp, and they cant be blocked. Diversion, Enchant removal, Energy denial, pressure hexes, as well as FC makes them the best class to put a hard rez on.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

18 Apr 2010 at 18:28 - 256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I wonder how well the Test Krewe is in touch with the more "meta" builds mesmers do have, if you want to call them that. As in do they know their strengths and weaknesses not to screw them up? My guess is no, nope, and no. Will mesmers get new builds? ...?

That's a good point.

For anyone on TC/live team reading this, for the record, current "meta" builds for PvE mesmer are (1) AP sinspam, (2) Mandragor-in-a-can with FD or EC, and (3) SoH-cleaner. (Did I leave anything out?) Please don't break those builds (at least without creating a superior replacement). If you're not familiar with them, and can't find them via search, I'd be happy to explain them.

---------------------

On another topic, this thread has really, really gone off the rails. Any hope that a mod could come through and siphon off the more "philosophical" stuff into its own thread?

Master Mxyzptlk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Obey My Command [sudo]

Me/

19 Apr 2010 at 11:46 - 257

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's a good point.

For anyone on TC/live team reading this, for the record, current "meta" builds for PvE mesmer are (1) AP sinspam, (2) Mandragor-in-a-can with FD or EC, and (3) SoH-cleaner.

Only one of which is actually reliant on mesmer skills. This is why mesmers need fixing.

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

19 Apr 2010 at 13:48 - 258

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

current "meta" builds for PvE mesmer are (1) AP sinspam,

That's not a meta build exclusively for Mesmers. Just about any caster profession could likely pull that off.

Quote:

(3) SoH-cleaner.

Not familiar with this, please explain.

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

19 Apr 2010 at 13:52 - 259

Quote:

That's not a meta build exclusively for Mesmers. Just about any caster profession could likely pull that off.

1) other casters have other meta builds, better than sin-spam; 2) mesmers are much better at it due to ap/echo/sin or echo-chain + sin.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

19 Apr 2010 at 13:58 - 260

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Not familiar with this, please explain.

Bar filled with Signets and SoH. Maintains SoH on pretty much everyone in the team and uses Signet of Removal, Draw Conditions and a bunch of other signets to clean and keep their energy up whilst having negative energy regen.
Monks can do it too though.
Most useful in teams with ER Eles and/or lots of physicals - very, very easy and boring and a role that not even heroes screw up.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

19 Apr 2010 at 13:59 - 261

OQNTAwh64RTfTsAZw4278BMPA soh-cleaner ^

The cleaner is for running with phys heavy teams, buffs with SOH, clean conditions and hexes, also abuses sigs with MOI. Its a bitch bar, but effective if a little dull

*edit*ninja'd by xeno! xD good show old chap! what what!

agrios

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

South America

Naked Stalkers of America[Nude]

W/

19 Apr 2010 at 21:04 - 262

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

..For anyone on TC/live team reading this, for the record, current "meta" builds for PvE mesmer are (1) AP sinspam..

Care to post the build? never heard of it

Master Mxyzptlk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Obey My Command [sudo]

Me/

19 Apr 2010 at 22:06 - 263

Quote:

Originally Posted by agrios

Care to post the build? never heard of it

Assassin's Promise, You move like a dwarf, ebon vanguard assassin support, plus 5 more skills. Maybe arcane echo for the assassin support, ether signet for energy boost, finish him to keep from having to use more mesmer skills...

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

19 Apr 2010 at 22:26 - 264

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/A...Promise_Spiker

pretty much this for ap sin spam (tho less FC and more insp imo than is listed), optional's been epidemic for something more appropriate, and cop for ymlad if you are lol disco calling. Echo the sin, and spam, prime with frag then cop, hit ap+fh for a recharge... the use of ap differs depending on the mob been faced and how fast your team is killing.

Sadly its BARELY a mes bar tho and thats half the problem..but unless your wanting mop, its the best platform for abusing pve spells.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

20 Apr 2010 at 03:43 - 265

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

That's not a meta build exclusively for Mesmers. Just about any caster profession could likely pull that off.

Mesmer does it better thanks to Arcane Echo. Still, it's very PvE-skill-heavy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/A...Promise_Spiker

I think Cowbot's version of the bar is superior. Anywho, key skills are AP, SIn, AEcho, Finish Him, and some energy management. You can vary the rest as you see fit. (Cowbot uses EBurden+Drain Delusions for e-management that's also a snare; Illusion of Pain for direct damage; and I think the 3rd PvE skill changes around as needed, but is often YMLAD. I tend to run CoP for the 3rd PvE skill (but I rarely end up using it). Just now, I wondered about EBurden+Auspicious (just don't miss with AP).)

[quote=Shayne Hawke[Not familiar with this, please explain.[/QUOTE]

Xeno pretty much covered this already. It's not glamorous... at all. But it serves its intended role very well.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

20 Apr 2010 at 14:51 - 266

Prob right about Iop

tho i personally like AI or Ethersig on there over DD.

ymlad vs cop, hmmm i normally fire off a fair amount of cops if someone balls up a little. Tho tbh, ive not really changed my bar that much since cop was nerfed :P i just echo sin not cop now. 2 sins + 1 cop + 1fh per ap cycle, and the cycle every few seconds* and that frag is a good cover/fish hex for ap too.. but yeah...prob time i had a mooch and updated but oh well..

Tho u lost me on cowbot

whom ever they are...

* (not counting ugh disco)

Bitoku Kishi

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

Serenity of the Night [Moon]

W/Mo

21 Apr 2010 at 14:41 - 267

I think Mesmers need a PvE buff in general, that's for sure. But they also need to be able to fill a unique spot in a PvE team. All they can really do right now is spam hexes (which Curses necros can do) or interrupt (which rangers can do). So the best you're really going to get for a PvE mesmer build right now is maybe a powerful hex/interrupt cross, but that's not really anything unique.

With that said, here's what I'm hoping they do with Mesmers in PvE:

Inspiration: Make some of the skills that drain energy from an enemy transfer it to the team. This would give the mesmer a "battery" position, but it would be different from the Necromancer's. The Necromancer is able to target single allies and give them an energy regen. The Mesmer, alternatively, could be spiking the whole team with a solid amount of energy gain (rather than a regen bonus), but it would require targeting an enemy rather than an ally to do so.

Domination/Illusion: This doesn't need as drastic a change as Inspiration, but it would help to give some more of their skills an area-effect target in PvE (ie. make them affect "target and all adjacent enemies"). It would be nice if Mesmers could finally build a nice PvE area-effect build without having to rely so much on title skills.

Fast Casting: Although not really necessary, a nice touch to this attribute in PvE might be to have it lengthen the duration of hexes. Something like a 2% increase in hex duration per attribute point could be really useful without making it too overpowered.

JDRyder

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

Great temple of Balthazar

Mo/Me

21 Apr 2010 at 18:37 - 268

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitoku Kishi

Fast Casting: Although not really necessary, a nice touch to this attribute in PvE might be to have it lengthen the duration of hexes. Something like a 2% increase in hex duration per attribute point could be really useful without making it too overpowered.

The only problem I have with this is generally speaking, NPCs won't live long enough for it to matter. I like the idea that has already been said a few times now, link some skills to FC, like seed of life to monk. This way, you won't just have N/Me with a bunch of mesmer skills

Jacobbs

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2010

Mo/

21 Apr 2010 at 18:59 - 269

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

removing them completely because they were unable/to lazy to fix them?

I think they'll just Smiter's Boon (PvP) it.

aeronox

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

22 Apr 2010 at 09:12 - 270

I have posted some skill suggestions at http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:User/Shaunnox

Is it kind of stupid that Mesmers, with their Fast Casting primary attribute, have an armor Virtuoso Insignia of +15 (while casting) ?

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

22 Apr 2010 at 09:44 - 271

aeronox

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

22 Apr 2010 at 09:57 - 272

... ... Sorry to waste everyone's time.

I'll just go delete my PvE mesmer now?

What about skill(s) that drastically increase the speed of a clear, by increasing speed of casting and recharge for all allies?

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

22 Apr 2010 at 10:02 - 273

If there's something that *has* to be shut down, my first thougth isn't "bring a mesmer" its "bring a Dragonslasher". They need to fix the endlessly chainable knockdowns that brawling headbutt gives before any other type of shutdown is required.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

22 Apr 2010 at 10:19 - 274

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeronox

... ... Sorry to waste everyone's time.

I'll just go delete my PvE mesmer now?

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you as wasting everyone's time.
What I meant was that if A.Net were to incorporate changes that are similar to what you suggested they would be wasting their resources on things that will have no effect on the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeronox

What about skill(s) that drastically increase the speed of a clear, by increasing speed of casting and recharge for all allies?

With the level of power in the game currently, I don't see how you can increase the time it takes to score a kill by a significant level without completely breaking the game.

aeronox

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

22 Apr 2010 at 10:25 - 275

The game is already broken in many ways. The ease and speed of clear is beyond stupid. That's what majority of players love. So let's make Mesmers broken too yeah?

Smarty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

England

Me/

22 Apr 2010 at 13:34 - 276

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeronox

So let's make Mesmers broken too yeah?

Yes.

If mesmer primaries in PvE are to be on par with every other caster class in the game, either every other caster class has to be nerfed or mesmers have to be broken. (I'm not including alterations to enemy AI or builds or team composition or reducing HM FC or anything else that's been suggested in the past to change the opposition to make mesmers more viable, because they're clearly not even in the room never mind on the table as options.) The first option makes more sense but will undoubtedly piss more players off and take more time for ANet to achieve so the second option is the only realistic one.

Based on Rahja's comments I very much doubt it's going to happen, though, and even though a lot of time effort and resources will go into improving mesmers in PvE they still won't be able to compete with the others, so at the end of it all people still won't be searching for a mesmer for their next FoW/UW/DoA pug. Hey ho.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

22 Apr 2010 at 13:52 - 277

Thank goodness we've been given some choice. Some of us still enjoy PLAYING the game more than pressing the iWin buttons upier is so fond of. Sorry, I'm not so obsessed with efficiency. I'd never trade the last vague resemblance of ROLE playing game for more broken crap.

It's not the game that needs a fix, it's actually people that need to cool off.

Smarty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

England

Me/

22 Apr 2010 at 14:02 - 278

I've finished playing the game, at least on my mesmer. He's fully equipped with every title, rank, skill, armour, weapon, you name it for whatever build or area I want to play him in. He's completely unneeded for any end-game stuff I might want to do with him, though, so my end-game experience is playing other characters. I'd really like the last few years of fun to have given me a character I could use to do the same end-game things as people who chose other classes as their main, which is why I want to see these changes be meaningful.

G4ymBoy

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

R/

22 Apr 2010 at 14:04 - 279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Thank goodness we've been given some choice. Some of us still enjoy PLAYING the game more than pressing the iWin buttons upier is so fond of. Sorry, I'm not so obsessed with efficiency. I'd never trade the last vague resemblance of ROLE playing game for more broken crap.

It's not the game that needs a fix, it's actually people that need to cool off.

I mostly agree but for me the mesmer is becoming less and less fun to use. When i know i could do anything my mesmer can do on another character and do it better it dicourages me to even bother with my mesmer (other than for the fabulous armor).

When the only worthy PvE build is based in PvE skills and an elite from another class (AP spiker), something is just off.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

22 Apr 2010 at 14:12 - 280

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I'd really like the last few years of fun to have given me a character I could use to do the same end-game things as people who chose other classes as their main, which is why I want to see these changes be meaningful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

When the only worthy PvE build is based in PvE skills and an elite from another class (AP spiker), something is just off.

Sure, something should be done. Something meaningful. I don't think dumbing down the game again is it tough.