Levels, leveling, level caps, and level 20

Long post hurt my eyes

i am willing to give you an honest off the top of my head answer (note this is spur of the moment without serious thought)

new skills that dont do much if any more but have next level special effects as in OMG did you see how xxx skill looks?

new professions with attending profession related skills but (OMG LOOK AT THE VISUALS WHEN XX CASTS XXX) balanced of course

possible new races (OMG HAVE YOU SEEN THE XXX I HAVE TO TRY IT) with its own new professions and skills

lots of new eye candy money sinks in armor weapons items special runes and expanded options in guild halls storage and better ai for henchies

new quests and missions

better story maybe

more and varied terrain and monsters

that is just scratching the surface but the one thing in common is it gives a lot of content without breaking the balance or raising the level

Okay no offence but im lvl 17 and i want guild wars to be fun for more than a couple months. they deperatly NEED to raise the level cap

nuts

you get a level *DING* OMG i got a level stronger and i am better than the noob

GUESS WHAT?

the monsters all went up the same DING in the new level x + *ding*content you go into

they can make content that is challenging fresh and interesting without having the *MAGIC DING*

are you playing for the fun content or simply putting in time so you have higher levels than someone else and can feel superior to them?

HAVE to increase levels or it will be useless and stale?

First off, what is there to be mad about? It's not fun now? You don't get enjoyment out of it? You bought a game with a level cap of 20, complete, to the end, just like others out there (like Baldur's Gate, for example, with a much lower level cap!), and you are not paying any extra fees monthly...why do you expect them to cater to your whims?

2nd, who's to say it won't be fun a couple of months down the road at level 20? What if they release a whole new section with 20 or so more missions and a bunch of new quests, all geared to level 20 characters...will that not be fun? People have made Super Mario Brothers games, and surprisingly enough, characters were capped at level 1 for the whole thing. On top of that, the enemies were pretty simple over all and very repetitive for the whole thing. You followed a straight path (for the most part) to the end, and they didn't add an expansion that let you double the level cap to have a Level 2 Mario, with a stronger jump or anything, and yet for some reason that game stuck around for quite a while, spawning many sequels.

Whose to say that this game won't do the same, but instead of sequels, they will create add ons that let you play with other jobs, both primary and secondary, with many new and different power combinations, more armor, weapons, and other such fun stuff. And instead of having to start over, you can continue on with your last "save game" right where you left off, with your existing character and do more missions! It won't be fun? Hmmm, me thinks you bought the wrong game then.

Think of this game more like Counterstrike or Mario Brothers, or better yet, think of it like Guild Wars, a totally unique style of Online game with a different playstyle than Everquest, City of Heroes, Ultima...etc. The closest online game to this one in style would be Monster Hunter for the PS2. The same idea, with token levels that don't mean anything other than access to harder missions, and new monsters to take down. It is another game that is totally dependant on skill, with "instanced" missions that you play multiplayer with up to 3 other buddies. A lot more limited in character selection, but a much better range of armor and weapons than this game (hint hint).

That's just my 2 cents, take it or leave it as you will, but you have no excuse, nor any right to be mad if they keep the level cap at level 20...

Forgive me if I am wrong...as Guild Wars is my first online RPG. I never saw a reason to play Everquest or any of the other multitude of online RPGs before. I am however quite happy that I bought Guild Wars a couple of days ago. I'm currently only a level 8 and JUST left what's been aptly coined 'Nub World'....However I ask this...without the ability to level limitlessly in what I've heard is a completely open end(never ending) game...what do you do after level 20...what is the point in continuing to play. You've achieved the highest level you can get...what is the purpose of doing the quests if you don't gain any experience from it? Why would anyone continue to run around the world completing quests for nothing?

worst analogy i've ever heard....ever....in my entire life....seriously.

you compared a platform adventure game to an RPG....the purpose of Mario is to get to the end of the game...the purpose of an RPG is to level....if you take away the end of Mario is there a reason to play it anymore?

I guess the point a lot of us are trying to make is that an endless treadmill of levels/abilities/etc is just a crutch that rewards the accomplishment parts of your brain rather than actually making a fun game.

Why can't an RPG start you at max level (or let you reach it quickly), and then spend its entire time simply making the content harder? FPS, RTS, etc games have been doing this forever.

In a way, *YOU* are leveling up because you learn how to devise better strategies and tactics.

Having spells become "bigger" (in gfx sense) would be cool, though; maybe proportionate to how many times you've cast them? But not a game-breaker to me.

Leveling up is only a part of an RPG, and not an essencial part by any means. It's too bad that so many "RPGers" think that it is the most fundamental, important aspect.

Yesterday I had my exp.points roll over and start back at the begining, I was already at level 20 before that happened and knew I wasn't going to hit 21 but I thought I read or heard that you get more Attribute points to use towards skills after rolling over beyond 20 to what should be like hitting 21, so my question is why didn't I get more attribute points?

Also as far as levels go, I'd like to see a RPG where you grow naturally in real life aquiring skills and doing what you like over and over becoming a master at some point in what ever that is which could be multiple skills, but not using any point system, just have it all hidden like it is naturally in real life.

If I were to guess where I would be at a level in real life now compared to the 20 cap in GW I'd say I hit 20 many years ago.

Is it true that you continue to get more attribute points after reaching lvl 20?

Skill points, not attribute points. That is the whole problem. Attributes would largely alleviate the lack of character development issue. Skill points are utterly worthless.

Dont rush to get to level 20 is my advice once you do that put the timer on your still interested clock.

Unless you dont mind re-rolling from scratch then the game will have limited appeal after a while.

With new content coming will make it better but im never one of these rush to max lvl players

Ok thx that explains it, I'm still having fun playing level 20, my favorite thing to do is either go running solo through the toughest area's i can find to see how long I can last and new loot I might find.

The other is to join a new player in a quest to help them through at least one quest and get a feeling of being able to accomplish the quests even in tough area's.

They are hard to keep alive with so few hps escpecially when they run off quickly into more trouble but thats the challenge to keep up with them and get them through it alive.

Ah, but the purpose of an RPG is not just to level, it is to role-play a character. You do that in Guild Wars. How is Mario a bad analogy? In Mario, you "level up" by eating mushroom, effectively doubling your Hit Points (it takes two hits to kill you). You level up fairly quickly in the game as well.

Guild Wars is much like that. You level up quickly in the game, and then you play through most of it as your uber-powerful self, with others who are also uber-powered, against enemies who are uber-powered. RPGs don't need to be about leveling, to be good RPGs. I've played excellent D & D games where we don't level up for many games, and yet I still enjoyed playing my characters. Hell, most of my characters never made it past Lvl 5. The max cap in D & D is also only 15-30, depending on how you play. Not really the point to get more powerful, but instead to play a cool story with an intersting character...which is what you are doing in Guild Wars, with the added bonus of working with others and against others in Guild Battles.

It was a bad analogy...but the more I play GW the more I agree with the level 20 cap. I guess it's something that you WILL get used to by the time you hit level 20.

I totally agree with this. RPG without a story isn't an RPG, because RPG stands for Role Playing Game it's about playing a role, you are part of that RPG's world, not a boring power-leveling char.

And if you really think leveling is the thing RPGs are about, search google for games called "StatBuilder" and "ProgressQuest". In these two games, you can concentrate in what you like most: leveling. All the boring stuff has been done for you. You only have to level. And the best thing there's no level cap!

Seriously if leveling is all you do play games mentioned above, or something similiar. If you want to use your skill and have fun choose Guild Wars. A.Net, never change the lvl cap.Period.

I think out of necessity, Anet may need to raise the lvl cap eventually. If the new expansion areas are filled with even stronger monsters, it would be near impossible for a group (even with good lvl 20 characters) to handle mobs, especially if they're lvl 25-35 or something. It doesn't matter how 'leet' you are if a mob of 5 monsters can destroy you in 3 seconds.

agreed...if the expansion is going to work they'll need to push the lvl cap up.

and the official word is they will not do that

you dont need the level *DING* with an inflated number to have challenging content

the next chapter will be for all of us not the grinding elite

from GW


We call that 'The Point of Ascension'. Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

I hope they have some incentive to do the quests....outside of attribute points and skill points.

I would say LV20 is not a good idea.

Yes, I understand what the supporters mean. They want the game to be balanced.
They mentioned about a concept of "skill-based".
They say the game is thus "skill-based" because of the Lv20 cap.

Really??

So why not totally giving of the leveling experience, only give people all skills to select, and then start the game?

Another word is "mission-based". What is the mission for? So many people are doing bonus they missed. Why? It's because they want to "explore the game",experience something "new", or because of the extra 1K exp?

If there is no exp reward , who will do the mission?

Some mentioned about "Enjoy the exploring new area"... Come on, it's just a by product of getting experience. People prefer to stay in a small room if there are High Exp enemies, not some pretty looking 3D model. The duty of the game designer is to make that small room look better.

Another reason is "consider GW as Mario or Starcraft"... Well, if so, why bother? why not buy a straight strategy game. Yes, I play RTS and Sports game like Winning Eleven. They are games requiring the player's skill, not leveling up. However, GW is RPG. What is the Strategey inside??? different combination of skills. What is the strategy of warrior? Being a tank, even if he has the second profession. The elementalist alway cast magic (and focus on only one kind: fire, water, air, or earth. no one put points on all 4). The strategy is just attack+defensive skills+healing skills. That's it!

Let's face it. You can have new concept, you don't need to follow the traditional MMO. However, you should know why people play MMO. It's because they want to be a Superman. Everyone had the dream to be a SUPER guy in childrenhod, and the MMO is the best place to go.

Getting stronger, that's the basic idea of RPG.

You say people wont' be addicted to GW like WOW, you say people can easily come back to their status even if they lost their character or didn't play for one year. You say the game is balanced because it's not "item-based"......

You know what you are talking? You are saying the game is not attractive as WOW because people wont' be addicted (dont' tell the Arena.NET doesn't want buyers addicted to the game). People lacks interests after reaching lv20(who will continue to play if there is no new item, no new skills...nothing new. Who will continue to play? Only because some new maps? If there is nothing to gain on the new map, why wasting time?) The item system of the game is simplified. YES, so simplifed( Lion's Arch has the same armor as in Old Ascolon).

Imaging someone find a bug in GW which could let people lv up over 20. We know it will be the hottest article on the internet!!! So we know what the customers want.
So the game developers don't want customers to be crazy about the game?don't want them sticking to the game?
Or as someone said, there is just not enough budget for contents after lv20.

My Opinion:
Yes, it's a good game. I have been playing for almost one month. It's like a simplified WOW or D2. However, it is over-simplified. Yes, this game doesn't require the monthly fee. So the designer just want people to play it for only one month, and wait for expansion??? I really don't know what the game is for after lv20 (I'm lv18 right now), everyone goes for PVP, trying to get a higher ranking on the ladder??

BTW: Let's talk about D2 and WOW. They actually have a LV cap of 99 and 60. OK, so in GW, why not have a lower cap so everyone could reach the top earlier and faster?
Sounds good. However, one thing is missed: the difference.
People don't want to be the same as others. They want to be different. You can have different Cap from 20 to 99,but no matter how you do it, people should feel they really gain something.
Most game has a cap, but no one complains, because they will be strong enough to finish everything when reaching the cap. In D2, there is few people reaching Lv99 because Lv90-Lv95 is enough for the game, then they quit, create another character and try something else.
However in GW, is LV20 enough for people to go around and finish the game?
NO.
A LV20 person even cannot fight alone before desert.
Yes, you can mention about team work, you can piss at "solo". Then you say you need strategy to survive.
Sounds reasonable, but ridiculous. We like to form team with friends (especially in GW, otherwise there is even no people communication), but we also want to be strong. We dont' like the situation I beg people to join the team even when I reach the top level. We don't like the idea I have to find some to go around the game, We should be able to fight alone sometimes. In fact, fighting alone needs much more real strategy than the 8 people team(What's the xxxx strategy for 8 people team? warrior be the tank, mages cast magic, healers do healing. Just following with others, sometime I even don't remember the road when finishing a mission).

OK, I would say LV20 or 30 or 90 is not the problem. The problem is the difference and result of Lv20. Is Lv20 enough for the game? Absolutely not because you will be easily killed in desert if you have only 2 or 3 Lv20 people.

The lv cap can be designed even at 5, but with satisfying result.

I have to agree with the bulk of what Likexx says I am on my third character nearly lvl 20 2nd char is something like lvl 15 and my first char lvl 20 (30 something) and I have lost interest. unless there are at least attribute points to be gained in any expansions I wont be playing. Arena can check the stats and see how much my game time has gone down. And as a change of subject how come Arena changed the stats of our pre order artifacts..is this legal...because i brought a product that had specifications can I get my money back because they decided to change the specifications of what I purchased with out any notification to me?
///Just my take////

I think the lev 20 cap should go. BUT......

First of all, we do level up after lev 20 and gain 1 skill point.
My question here is: Why not call it lev 21?

Yeah ok you do not gain attribute points but a lot of people will just like to see their character hit lev 100. It made no difference that they now just have 80 more skill points but it gives them a goal for playing. People like goals!

Why not give an extra attribute points every 5 - 10 levels? In the last few levels of the game your almost throwing them away anyway. At the start of the game 5 attribute points may mean a lot as advancement is cheap. But at lev 17+ they are giving you 15 points a level as the cost to advance is soo darn high.
So who cares if your lev 50 character now has 3 more attribute points than my lev 20? Will 3 points make any real difference? NOPE. A skill you never use may go from 2 to 3. wooopy wow!
But it gives a very clear goal to players and players love goals!

Offer special items and armour to high lev characters. This can only be cosmetic if you like. People love fashion and like to have the elite armour (As seen with the 75k armour). Allow there to be a suit of armour availble only to lev 50+ characters. Goals! Goals!

How about something extra for the guild hall or a title above your characters head or something. Goals! Goals!

Or even 1 hp a level gain after 20. Or 1hp every 5 levels. Who cares? Goals!

The problem right now is that 80% of the players make 2 goals. A) to hit lev 20. B) To finish the storyline. They dabble in PvP and then have no idea what to do next.
Allowing their character to level past 20 (Or some other form of advancement) gives a new goal to the players. It does not have to make our characters uber but it does have to be a clear goal. The clearer the goal the sure we are to chase after it.

loviatar
been reading up some of your posts, do you mind telling us what your connection to arena net/guild wars is.

I agree with likexx in many ways. It sucks how you come into a world where you can pass someone that looks identical to you so often. When looking for people i always hold ctrl and look for the name as there is no point looking for them as most people look the same. Some unique armor items would be awesome just to stand out in the crowd. I also dont see the point in collectors, how many people have actually bought stuff of them all the equipment is crap and so is the individual armor pieces. I wanna be different . I have 3 characters one that has ascented and close to finishing and two others level 18. I cannot be bother creating any others as its Waaaaaaaaaaay too boring to go through all the quests and mission again. The only goals i have in the game so far are getting ascention for the current character (which is funny cause i would be level 20 by then anyway)and Finish off the story. After ascending you only have the story to do but the struggle a level 20 characters has at that point is terrible, that sometimes i think screw this and quit or go help some lower level guild members. I have given pvp a few goes. but whats with the random arenas you die so often because there is no plan of attack. no ones know what they are doing and all go off on there own.
you can only seem to be able to actually create a party for pvp in later arenas. How about some PvP missions aswell to give some reason to the fight besides kill the other team. With all that said i really do like the game and think it has potential but if things dont change i can see myself getting bored and may just pay that extra and move to WOW.

Well now that I've leveled to 20 and learned a ton of skills I find nothing of interest left to do other than farm items to sell or make special weapon but since they have thwarted farming by stopping drops after getting few I will now move on to another game with more to do as PVP to me is a pointless waste of my time with no entertainment value.

I couldnt care less what the lvl cap is. Yep, agree with most part of your post, about having lvl x not making much of a difference.
The thing I dont really agree with you is on the Goals part. Not as a flame, but merely a different point of view.

Humans are self-centred, mostly arrogant and like to show off(myself included in the form of unique outfits(in-game of course)).
Oh look, I'm lvl 100, you are only lvl 20, I played longer than you have, so I'm 1337, and you are n00bz. Oh look, I reach lvl 100 in 3 days, you took 2 weeks to reach lvl 20? Wow, what were you doing? <-- people of this types will start appearing all over(and no, I'm not these type). Next thing you know, those level 100 guys are going to start complaining, why bother get to lvl 100 when it doesnt make much of a difference.
This leveling style sure, it benefits the players by having some sense of accomplishment to achieve something. However, it also prolongs the staying of the rotten community in the game. I personally do not mind seeing those 1337-haXX0r players out of the community because they couldnt find the enjoyment some players have.

Now heres the problem, which one outweighs which? Is majority of the long-term players going to be the people who wants more levels or the people who want the cap at 20. So far as seen, as complaints go by, like so-and-so mission too hard. ANet 'makes' it easier, maybe less mobs in some parts. Too hard to get elite skills, make it easier. I dont know how much weight is put into complaints from customers towards their updates.

Let's just wait and see what ANet does. Perhaps they are going to wait a few months to get a steady view of the players in the game. While the game is still 'hot', there will be many new players who have not gotten into the game, and there will also be those who couldnt find it entertaining, leaving the game. So the numbers are not stable. Once the numbers settle down, they get a real good look and what is really appealing to the customers, then perhaps some really good and sweet major updates are sure to follow through. Personally, I'm going to give it a few months, I can never have enough satisfaction with trying out something new. Played Ranger/Monk so far, ascended. Now I'm going for a Ele/Me. Somehow I never get bored of starting a fresh new character. And no, not just because its ONLY my 2nd character, I know most of you have played perhaps even more than 3-4 characters. Most MMORPGs I have played, I always love creating new characters, sure they wont all reach the highest lvl. But if I dont like that character, I just scrap it and build another one. Maybe its just me.
I still remember my first mesmer at lvl 20. Then I made many other characters. Didnt like my mesmer then, deleted it just like that, so my Ranger/Monk is the official first ascended character.

well i just busted out the lvl 20 about two days ago.. before i got there i thought that they should raise it up a bit but now that im there im starting to like it because i dont have to worry about battleing 20+ dudes. lol it makes me feel powerful too.

YOu don't even get skill points once you hit level 20...running around for stuff you don't need is getting real boring.

Huh?? everytime you fill up the exp bar past 20 you get another skill point.

My guess is that he probably meant attribute points. Skill points are worthless anyway, so who cares.


-A

There seems be alot of dicussion on this thread about level increase. Honestly I do agree with those who favor yes. but Im also in favor for those people who dont like the long term of hardcore roleplaying experiances. Sure its great to add more exciting stuff to guildwars and hope that those new features will keep players happy. honestly over time players will eventually loose interest especally those fighting for a level increase. The restriction on the amount of characters an account can have, came as quite a shock, and the current leveling system that is implemented in guildwars as of present does provide too much of fast past leveling up. But over all there is a solution to ever problem, or a choice to keep all guildwars fans happy.
Ive been pondering on this whole discussion for a couple of hours and have thought up of several ways all players can get what they want out of guildwars.

I noticed when I first made a character that I was asked to choose what kind of character he/she would become in the game. A PvP/tournament character would remain as it would now. being restricted to a maxium level cap of 20.
The other choice being a roleplayer character could be split up into two types: "Standard" and "Hardcore"

The Standard roleplayer, Enjoying the storyline aspects of the game. but doesnt like to spend hours on end repeatively going into endless battles to levelup to the maxium cap level. thats fair enough not all people like to play a game endlessly to death just to finally one day max out there character. The storyline for a standard player would be the same length as it is now. the only difference to the short term roleplaying experiance is that the areas and locations the player encounters will of course have certain modifyers.

These modifyers would calculate what each party members level is, how many drops that player will recive in this area/location based on there level. and how hard should each monster(s) be in the area/location. The experiance earned from each monsters death will be adjusted per character based on what type of roleplayer they are.
When the modifyer has choosen the amount of items each player will will recive in the current area (example: 5 Items) It would then compare there character type with a database of items made for that type of player and randomly pick each item that player should recive. Items could have a small restriction on them too, Example: Short bow of posion 15-28dmg. +10% dmg Vs Drakes, Two hands (Standard)
This item could only be used by a standard role player. Thus it would prevent people from gaining bigger items from hardcore roleplayers.

The leveling system for Standard Roleplayers would be simular to the current Leveling system now. It wouldnt take hours to level up your character..

A Hardcore Role-Player, Enjoys spending days on end slaughtering 100's to 1000's of monsters for the pure fun of leveling up. Enjoys that there character takes longer to level then the standard roleplayer. The storyline for a Hardcore player would be the same length as it is now. Except that the modifyer would auto-matically detect there level and character type and adjust monsters, itemdrops, and experiance to make areas/locations more challenging. And hardcore characters can only use items with (hardcore) in there discription, a seperate database of items should be made for hardcore players.

If both types of players engage in a area/location together. the modifier detects the party. As i mentioned above and makes the monster/drops/experiance adjustable to both parties. ie: people(s)

All skills should remain the same as they are now.
And finally for henchmen, they too auto-matically have a modifyer when choosen by the player there stats are automatically set to an appropriate level base on the type of character, Standard/hardcore who are in the group.

At least with some kind of method, or any idea. All players of the guildwars world could enjoy there favorite game forever. without the endless conflict of level increase wars!
I know this idea isnt much but it could prove to be of some use. Some people may or may not like the overall idea itself. but thats life..not everyone agrees.

It should probably get a slight bump maybe 5 lvls no more.More content should be the priority.

I totally agree with likexx, you said it, its "over-simplified".

if nobody can exceed level 20, then how are people supposed to increase their skills? im new to it and i dont really know much about it. also, what do i have to do to get capes for my guild?

Well, skills are either bought, taught, or recieved as rewards for quests. Levels usually just give you more hp, and some attribute points in which you can put into your perspective class categories.

after level 20 you receive additional skill points and refund points but no more
hp
energy
attribute points (except for the pair of 15 point quests)

ok, i have an ele/mes level 20...i have tried several times to kill my mirror with no luck i might add...my question is this, if she is a mirror of me with the same skills amd weapon, why does she kill me with no skills equipped and also she uses a bow at a distance and an axe up close...both weapons i never have used. also i killed her 8 times and we died at the same time, the message came up to check my updated q log where it said mission completed, but at the same time it said i was defeated return to outpost... is this a bug or something..i took a screenshot.

where are these 15 point quests? i heard about them just cant right them

Hi Loviatar,

Good to see you back...just one concern, you still have not responded to any of my questions?

The Weaver