Levels, leveling, level caps, and level 20

Guild Wars is one of the first role playing game on-line not based on a time reward system. It's why I strongly believe that Guild Wars is high above all the other RPG on-line games : what makes you win or lose is the comprehension of the game system, not the hours you spent on playing (because you're 14 years old and you can allow yourself to play 12 hours a day).

Guild Wars is the fist on-line role playing game base on a Strategic Reward system. You're rewarded not on the hours spent, but on your abilities. Of course, more you know a game, higher are the chance that youre abilities will grow. But it's the same thing for all games. I bet that if you play chess for the first time versus someone who has played at the game for ages, you'll lose (or you're a genius, that can happen ). Still, everyone when understanding the system has the same chance to win. And personnaly, I just love game that push you and also your team to be smarter in your strategies. That's the interest in killing rabbits for days to reach level 3 ?

Purpose of leveling is only here to make you learn the game and play with less skills than a level 20 players. If the level cap is ever raised, that will be problably the most stupid design choice made by the game developpers. And as the game developpers strongly believes (and I think they're right) that the future of role playing on-line is on Gameplay mechanics based on Strategic Reward systems and not Time Reward systems, I'm not anxious at all.

Can you still get attribute points, to make your skills stronger, after 20?

200 total stops at 20

Good topic and I’ll throw my two cents in since I see what I believe to be both good points and myths in this thread.

“GW is completely different than other MMORPGs so trying to compare them is a waste of time.”

FALSE

GW is actually very similar in almost every way to games like EQ/WoW etc.. There ARE important differences and the topic of this thread is one of them. Still it is a multiplayer game set in a fantasy environment with spells, swords, levels, quests, and teamwork that is really very similar to a game like WoW/EQ/DAOC/UO and such.

“The problem with having a level cap is that my character can’t grow anymore.”

FALSE

This is the primary misconception. Yes, everyone likes the feeling of growth and the idea of one’s character suddenly being “frozen” isn’t very appealing regardless of the situation.

The key to understanding this is that there are three ways that a character can grow: 1) grow in power, 2) grow in abilities (options), 3) grow in how well the player uses the available options the character has.

If you look at most of the other games similar to GW level combines number 1 and 2 on the above list. In other words, in order to play with new “toys” and have more options you MUST level. What GW does is separates 1 and 2 starting at level 20. In other words, your character no longer needs to level in order to acquire new spells, combat moves, and the other “goodies” that we have learned to associate with leveling.

Also, regarding point 3, all MMORPGs have skill in them to varying degrees. One of the advantages to GW is that this has been more emphasized from the starting design than in any other game yet. Note that even if your character does not grown in relative power (e.g. your hits do more damage to a lower level) this focuses the game on 2 and 3 which are where, for most people, most of the fun is anyway. Getting new abilities, choosing how to combine them, then applying them to either PvE, or PvP play, then becomes the heart of the game. Growing in “level power”, as has been pointed out, is really not necessary.

“The advantage to having a level cap that stays constant is that more content stays relevant for longer.”

TRUE

Indeed, this is a very important point. Compare two games: one has 100 levels with 3 areas designed for each level while the other game has 20 levels with 3 areas designed for levels 1-19 and 150 designed for level 20. Which game is putting doing a better job at making sure the content is still useful to players in the long run?

Don’t forget that what makes a game fun is CHALLENGE. This means that the power of your character is approximately equal to the enemies you face be they PvP or PvE.

If new PvE content is all based on level 20 difficulty and new skills can be attained that can combine and allow for fresh tactics then there is no reason that this would not be 100% as fun as climbing a ladder where you and the creatures each keep adding a level every X hours of play.

“A fast leveling curve just means that I’ll get bored faster”

FALSE

The causes of boredom are repetition, stagnation, and lack of challenge. The main fear seems to be that GW won’t have anything to offer at cap and while some posters have tried to explain what can be done at cap, the responses have seemed to lack focus.


I think the key to understanding this is the promises of new skills and new content. If you think about it, there are only two things that leveling up in other MMORPGs gives you a) new skills, b) access to new content. By claiming that they will offer many new level 20 skills in expansions along with new level 20 content, it seems clear that that are offering everything that other games are. This is a very important point.

So, getting to 20 fast makes sense if that is where the lion’s share of content is going to reside.

Hopefully this expands a bit on this topic and will be useful to those who are attempting to understand how GW actually compares to the competition.

I think that a level increase past 20 would be good for expansion packs in the RPG part to the game, it would allow increase challanges to the new quests and also allow new skilles to be learned. However with the PvP part of the game, I do think their should be a cap as far as levels go. But also I think that every character should be at the same level, this way the contests will be more about team play and tactics then overall character strengths.

So this way it is fair to all types of players, I know for one I just like the RPG types of game play and am not much for the PvP types of game play, so should players like me be resticted to a character level cap. I think that would be a little unfair, but if we were to partisapate in a PvP and the level cap was 20 and I wanted to use my RPG character and his level was 30, then upon transfering to that game areana his level would be set at the cap as well as his skilles. To be only fair.

"I think that a level cap at 20 would be good for expansion packs in the RPG part to the game, it would allow increase challanges to the new quests and also allow new skilles to be learned."

Fixed.

But seriously, how many times do people need to explain that your level doesn't HAVE to directly link to challenge/difficulty/skills/fun/power.

I'm getting worried. I mean, everyone talks about how Anet is pretty good at listening to customer suggestions...how many thousands of "Increase the level cap!" posts/suggestions will it take before they listen? I hope they hold true to their vision, because I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LEVEL JUST TO EXPERIENCE THE GOOD PARTS OF THE GAME AND HAVE FUN.

Leveling just drags the game out and feels like a chore, that....is not fun. Adding new areas, new challenges, new gameplay elements...that is fun.

Forgive me if this has been said before, I read about 5 pages and my eyes hurt.

But a level 20 level cap is great for PvE. It actually makes an mmo non-linear. I know, I know. It's a huge open world, how can an mmo possbily be linear?

Think about it though. Every game has certain level sections. I'm going to use Lineage 2 for example, since it's the last mmo I've been playing.

Level 1 - 5, you stay around town. Levels 5 - 10, go over the hill. 10 - 20, you go to your dungeon, or Gludin. 20 - 25, Abandoned Camp. 25 - 30 EG. And so forth and so forth and so forth. It's the same in every game. You have a certain section to go to at a certain level, and your guided the whole way. If you started late, or re-rolled, everyone has levelled past you, good luck finding a group.

Guild Wars, you start in Ascalon. You level a little there. You go to Old Ascalon, you level a little there. Then suddenly, the entire map, and it's a huge freakin map, is open for you to explore and see. And since everyone maxes there, if you take a little longer to get there, i.e. a casual gamer, you still won't be screwed because people won't be to high to party with you.

This is a revolutionary game. It's trying to change the way that mmo's play, and you have to stop thinking of the grind, and think of the gameplay experience.

And besides, even if you are pve, if you decide to pvp every now and then, and I know you will, there won't be some level 9999999 hanging out in areas where levels 5 go pretending to be uber.

I think people remain confused for two reasons:

1) They have already done it a different way e.g. +level = +character growth & +content access and,

2) It isn't clearly explained how GW wuill provide growth without leveling.

Unless playing the same character in PvP forever is acceptable for you, most players DO want to keep growing their character.

What isn't seen is that what growth really is is getting new abilities.

They are right to say that in other games you must level to see new content, grow, and thus have fun. Also, since the new skills will probably mostly be in future expansions, it is right for them to say that once they get to 20 and see the content in the game prior to expansions that the growth will essentially stop.

Of course, this is true of all games like GW too. All content is limited and will stop eventually. What they are not seeing is that level and new skills can be separated and you can get new "goodies" e.g. spells, combat moves, stances, all sorts of abilities AND access to new and fresh content with the expansions without the need to level.

It also goes too far to claim that adding more levels would "ruin" the game. Fact is it just isn't necessary and it would make content obsolete that doesn't need to be obsolete if you keep the cap fixed. That is the main advantage to it (along with easier balancing of PvP) and it is a large advantage.

As for GW being a revolutionary game? Not really. I never felt a grind in UO either. Yes, EQ is grinds-ville and a few of the clones after it are also, but what GW does is takes elements from Diablo 2, EQ, and MtG and makes the teamwork RPG experience a bit better.

GW is not the first game to have a level cap, not the first game to allow a character to be capped in 25ish hours of play (I did many in UO in that time), and not the first game to have fun PvP (although they did a good job on PvP overall).

GW has plenty of problems and I could fill a page with them, but as far as this topic goes, they are 100% right to say that as long as new content and character growth is supported that adding levels adds nothing to a game. Now, explaining this to people who are used to another approach is another thing entirely.

Hi, ok...i slowly think i can live with the level-cap. Even when i never want to PvP.
But one thing....how to make the Game funny after a while ? Like 1 Year ?

I Explored everything, i got the best Armor, i got the best weapons and all skills.

Ok, then i buy a expansion...but for balancing all new items and so one are the same as before with new grafik ?
They can´t do in a cooler sword, or a kick-ass Skill because the balancing....

Also in fact i stay there with the same old crap...or ?

This is about what iam thinking
(Now Knock me down with Words...)

The trick is to understand what you get in any RPG expansion:

1) new areas to explore, quests, story line, items, etc.,

2) new character abilities e.g. spells, combat moves, and such.

If you get an expansion for WoW or for GW, either way, you'll get this stuff.

The only difference is in GW is that instead of leveling-up to get access to the new abilities, you'll quest for them which amounts to almost the same thing.

The problem is thinking that a new cool sword is only cool due to it giving a bigger bonus and this is where it is hard to understand. For those people who are impressed with an additional +5 damage on a sword that then must face 5 more armor (for example) you really got nothing.

What makes a new sword REALLY cool, is stuff like special abilities that allow your character to do new things e.g. fly, become invisible, combine with other abilities, help teammates in new ways, etc... Not necessarily more powerful things over all, but NEW things. It is all about a fresh game play experience and tweaking numbers doesn't provide that; not really.

I can see how people get confused about this, I really do. I sure hope that GW doesn't suffer for it, because I stopped being impressed with getting a +5 sword vs. the new +100 hit point creature about 10 years ago and really like that they are trying to change this illusion to something more substantial.

I think this sounds cool to me too

Ok. lets Hope they never get tired of new Ideas in the Future !

people are going to have to change their concepts regarding levels

more levels doesn't = more content
more levels = more grind

guild wars is centered around pvp
WoW, Eq2, and the less-popular clones are centered around PvE

if you don't want to pvp, or don't want to pvp much, then guild wars is probably not the best choice for you

I currently play WoW, but just canceled my subscription. There is basically no point in participating in pvp in that game until you are level 60. I don't have large blocks of time in which to play games, so it would take me a few months to reach lvl 60, and start having fun in pvp. Quests bore me, so the prospect of spending a few more months grinding to 60 has no appeal to me.

in guild wars, i'll have at least one ascended character (lvl 20) to pvp with after about one week of casual gameplay, or less if i want to dedicate an entire weekend to gaming.

so one huge benefit to the way the levels are structured is that it opens up pvp without having to spend months, and months grinding up.

another aspect that makes this game different to all those others is the lack of a monthly fee. All those other games can coast for months and months and months with no content updates while they make millions in monthly subscription revenue. If guild wars producers want to get paid they need to develop and release new expansions. This virtually guarantees very frequent content updates...maybe every 2 months.

All that new content will be designed for lvl 20 toons.

SWG gaming cycle:
grind professions to max for a month
pvp if you can stomach the imbalance
grind jedi for about a year when you get bored of everything else
then keep grinding till you quit

WoW gaming cycle:
grind for a few months to 60
pvp if you can stomach the imbalance
wait for content (which so far has taken about 5 months to crank out the first major content patches)

GW gaming cycle:
immediately start pvping with a pvp-only pre-made toon and level a 'roleplay' toon to lvl 20 at your leisure
take the first 2 or 3 months to explore all the content and pvp options
get the new content expansion
repeat

they have already stated that some expansions will allow us to create new races, professions, and offer additional character slots which will also help to keep us busy

I came from MU, a MMORPG, surelly known for many people around here.
Personally I think that the Level Cap is a good thing because it makes players strong by their skill, instead of by the time spent playing. What I mean is,
for instance, where I come from, To be a strong char I MUST spend hundreds of hours playing to get higher and higher level...
Even though I didn't play the Beta, it seems that GW requiers a lot more planning on how to distribute your "experience" to become a strong char. This way, you are good if you are smart, not if you have a whole day to be playing getting yourself more levels.
Raising the level cap isn't such a good idea because, it seems to me, players will be able to master many disciplines instead of one or two and everybody will have uber builds, therefore lowering the need to choose and use skills wiselly.
Best regards.

P.S. This is based on what I read on this forum and GW site. Since I didn't play the game there might be inaccuracies. Feel free to correct me if that is the case

I have played the Beta version of the game, and clearly the advanced quests have to be played with a group in the RPG part of the game. GW does allow you to pick NPC to play with that are at a set level. Also you could be a level three and still be able to aquire every spell or skill a certain proffession can possess. As you level up, it is importain to were you place your skill points to better your characters skills. I can see that some feel that this should be limited, since some could design their character to be "ALL Powerful", thus making it unfair in the PvP game modes. I also noticed that the ones who collect the most raw materals, have the best armor. All of this has nothing to do with leveling, the only thing you gain is attibute points and increased health points.

I now see what most of you are saying about having a level cap, and having it set ar 20.

I wonder if there should be special levels, for example in GW there is a tournament, the guild that wins, all partisapating characters andvance one level passed the max as reconition of their achevment, may be even given a new skill to go with that level.

Now I know some may think that, that guild will keep winning, the rule would be if yopu won the last tournament that your guild or the characters that partisapated in that guild would have to sit the next 2 tournaments out.

[QUOTE=Chris Blackstar]

I wonder if there should be special levels, for example in GW there is a tournament, the guild that wins, all partisapating characters andvance one level passed the max as reconition of their achevment, may be even given a new skill to go with that level.

QUOTE]

no way

that is a game balance breaker if i ever saw one

again ...no

If you look at other real games of skill like Chess, Go, Golf, and such, they actually do it the opposite way. The handicap goes to the weaker player e.g. if anything, the most losing guilds should get an extra level to create more challenging play for everyone.

A really good guild wouldn't want a bonus, but they might want to spot you a rook to finally get a challenge

I played a beta of Guild Wars and loved it from the start. I think the level cap is a good thing(as most people are saying) because you dont have to spend hundreds of hours playing to be good. I play CoH and it took me over 500 hours to reach the max level. That was a waste of my time and i regret it ever since because the game is boring now. But to thoughs who dont want there to be a level cap there should be a serperate level type of thing that doesnt reflect on hit points or how your charecter will play but a little title that says that they reached a certain level.

Well, I´ve read all the posts , I´m a newbie here but here´s my suggestion of what should happen when expansions come out.

The lvl cap of 20 is cool since the focus is on your deck of skills, and with the expansions you could always make better builds (the bigger the deck, the better the options... that alone should keep PvP/GvG alive in the long term).

What I think would be awesome to keep PvE alive is 1) more powerful enemies, and 2) increase the limit of party members to face these more powerful enemies.

Think how fun it would be to gather a party of 15 and face an extremelly powerfull giant/dragon (who is let´s say lvl 50) and his minions for example.

With larges parties we could also have quests that feels like war. Have an army of players versus an army of charrs for example.

These are just some ideas I have...

Changing the level cap would change the very premise of what the designers promised.

GW's is not about time sink. They want to de-emphasize the power of levels and items and reward skill instead.

we hate mindless leveling. period