Levels, leveling, level caps, and level 20

It would seem "no". 9_9

I want stuff to do: With my friends, without my friends, in conjuntion or in competition with my friends... I've played games where if I left for a long weekend (Something I'm likely to do a a semi-regular basis), I come back and I'm twenty levels behind. They mill about while I limp along trying to keep up.

No way, I see no need for that. I haven't seen an argument against the level cap that made any sense to me at all.

Dave III

I said it wasnt a necessity, the level cap is fine, but once the expansions come out and new things (whatever they are, skills etc.) are released, because face it, no game would JUST release new areas without weapons, armor, or items that will require better marksmanship etc etc. if you have reached level 20 it's going to be a bit difficult gaining attribute points and skills isnt it ? you wont have any points to put into these advanced weapons.

If you really want the level cap to go up, you're an idiot (to put it quite bluntly).

What does a raised level cap help? Seeing as barely any of the content in Guild Wars is tied to levels then really it doesn't do anything. Why would it restrict a new expansion?

But the all time example of idiocy is people that think raising a level cap would extend "skill" in the game when it would really only be a representation of time played and would completely imbalance PvP because a level 20 will NEVER win against a level 60. If you're a PvEer, you're still an idiot for the sentiment because going back and doing Riverside is never going to be fun if you can 1-hit everything that moves!

can anybody refer me to the interview where they said the next chapter would have indoor invironments such as dungeons etc

and the level cap is the one thing they are the most adamant on because of balance

It's going to be impossible to gain attribute points past level 20. And I think that's a good thing. It maked you have to think about how you distribute them, not just slap them on all over the place and know there's always more if you need them.
As to skills, there won't be anything to stop you from gaining skills. Skills don't come from leveling, they come from completing quests etc. The whole point is that you get to level 20, get your 200 attribute points balanced how you want them then go collecting more and more skills to give you more options in battle.
Yes, the expansions will have new areas, items, armour etc, but you don't need to go up any levels to make that work.

If the level 20 cap will still exist when guild wars comes out?
Personally, I would hate for level 20 to be end of the road, particularly in PvE. I really don't care if there have to be lots of patches sent out a month to keep players with large levelled characters having a big challenge, just so long as characters don't have a growth cap.

I can see this becoming a problem after a few months if the game is released as-is. Players will eventually reach level 20 with all four characters they are allowed, and have to delete one and start over. That would get redundant.

Does anybody else see 'expansion packs' in the future?

Another 'does anybody know'... sorry for the double post if it isn't allowed:

Are there going to be things like banks? Has anybody ever played runescape? They have banks where you can put not just money, but items that you don't want to carry with you. This would be a good idea.

Another possible addition in the seemingly impending expansion pack >_>

About the level 20 cap, people are going to tell you this to, THe game puts an emphasis on skill rather than leveling up, the fun is doing those quests and actually PLAYING the game rather than waiting that insufferable 6 months to finally get your charecter high enough for the fun stuff to start.

not only will the level 20 cap stay in place but all of the additional *CHAPTERS* which will have as much content as the original game (and be priced accordingly) will have the same cap for game balance

it is funny how the more people have played in betas (myself included) the more they like the cap and see more posibilities of long game play and not less

EDIT

anybody with any knowledge of the game will tell you that reaching level 20 is when the game really starts

and the chapters will be out as often as 6 months if we are lucky

the reason for maintaining the cap is so people can pick and choose any all or none of the additional content and still be competitive with the others

this is not a level grind game and it seems people have been programed that level grind is good and if no level grind it cant be good

Well mr. Loviatar Ill have you know I love the idea of the cap and i haen't even played yet! I think tahts becasue I played ffxi for so longggg and am only level 25 and am doen playing because NOTHING FUN IS HAPPENING! not to mention the 12.50 dollars a month I pay to hit monsters all day just wanting to do something fun. That subscription is SO getting cancled when i wake up toamrrow. GRAWRRR i hate ffxi so much now

There was another thread jumping around here, I can't point to where, but they were all talking about how levels 1-20 are kinda like the "tutorial" part of the game, and that the real gameplay starts after you reach level 20. There was a very amusing map, but I don't want to try and replicate it for fear of shaming it.

And here's the thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1277

Well the whole thing of the fun actually begins at level 20 (I'm surprised no one has made the life begins at 40 jokes) is kind of a double edged sword. If you only have fun by gaining level's then no this is not the game for you. This decides to train you own reactions and reflexes. As a player you have to be better than the AI and the other players. If you just want to be able to walk into a scenario and be able to walk over anything in your path just because you have spent tens of thousands of hours playing the game (and realistically a trained monkey could do as well as you) then no this is not the game for you. If you want a game that challenges your own skills, with more frequent areas to explore (as chapters are to be released every few months unlike FFXI I think there is the one addition no for a game that has been out for 1.5 years ) this will be much more your style.

I think there really really "REALLY" needs to be a sticky posted to explain the ideals and goals of the level cap. We really really really need to get the point across to all the mmorpg players that this isnt the stereotypical "level up and thats it" crap thats out there.

I agree, xcept, i would have added more reallys

I've played runescape Ristaron. My character is level 79, my total level is 870+ and no I am not a member. That took me 3 months to do. 3 months of getting "exp" in wood cutting, mining, smithing ranged, magic etc. etc. So now let's relate what we can.

The "banks" are a good idea for guildwars and I hear there is some sort of "player storage" for items we want to save coming, although that may only be a rumor. This is the end of what relates between Runscape and Guildwars.

First let's dispell a runscape myth. Many runescape players say it's "skill" at the higher levels, well, it isn't! You get one more hp point from exp gained in attack, strength, ranged, and magic attacks for all the tens of thousands of regenerating monsters you kill camping for hundreds of hours. So my character has 65 life right now, obviously he can't take on a level 100, even if we were wearing the same armour--the level 100 would have about 85 life!--and likely his str, attack and defense will be impossible to defeat, especially since most higher levels develop all their sklls (I guarantee the level 100 had the level 43 prayer to stop all physical damage, ranged and magic are a few levels below 43.)

So this level 100 would likely have more prayer, more magic, and more wealth for more runes, rune arrows, Guthix or Zammy armour, etc. than I would. All Runscape players know this, thus the only reason anyone works so hard in runescape and similar mmorpgs is to be able to be equally equipped to others of similar level, and, in all reality to be identical to the highest level person so they can be sure of going anywhere where PVP is allowed not being killed by any other player--THIS IS ALL THEY ARE DOING! I have yet to go into the wilds. Many of my lower level friends have gone, try to get me to go, most though get killed shortly thereafter, lose their 85,000 gold piece rune plate and are begging me for money, for to make them mith, etc--There is none of this in guildwars, none of this best efforts lost for sake of the leveling system and a scammer who took a bunch of people for granted to have more wealth in game than Bill Gates in reality.

Additionally about runescape, have you played a while? I mean have you played long enough to see how many people die in the wild before level 40 because someone took them there, pretending to be their friend and they died and lose everything? What's worse to me is the players I have run into who do that, who "con" a lower level player with decent items up to the wilds just to kill him and take them, will actually say "how else am I gonna get free stuff?" Free? FREE! Can you see how GuildWars not relying on level and items creates a truly competitive environment based on the skills you choose?

What you are used to in most MMORPG's as in Runescape is once you have the best armour and are 70 percent of the highest level with a few high level healing pots (swordfish in runescape) you can pretty well walk through any scenario, at least in my experience on the free servers--No wonder these other games get boring! There is no challenge in their end game.

My GuildWars level 18 ranger/nec or 14 warrior/nec remain challenged in the last mission to lyon's arch. Although usually it is from someone who is racing through like they would in runescape because the level-to-item systems of these games leads to a zero challenge experience--This Ristaron is something you will not encounter in GuildWars whether PVP or PVE players. The design and implementation thus far makes the solo invicible fighter who can walk through whole map with only an occasional 1 pt of damage inflicted on him virtually impossible.

Ug, i read alot of posts about this so in an impassioned over intensified moment I wrote a book that likely will not even be seen by the original poster of the thread! I gotta lay off the coffee!

I read your book! You put the case well. I wish people would stop asking about the level cap as if it was a bad thing. We really do need something as a sticky or part of the faq addressing this issue.

Cat thanks! My book needed a title

Ok, Sin, lets continue without the attitude, please.
I know now that level 20 characters are still challenged by half the game. I like this. I just think that you should still get some rewards for going out and confronting the challenge.
I can understand if the level cap stays if you get better skills, weapons and armour all the time. And I'm sure that's the case. But I was confused before because I was under the impression that after level 20, your character doesn't get any better. And guild wars didn't seem to me to be like a game like Rune, where it's 90% skill. There are no levels in Rune it's all PvP and only weapons give clear advantages. But someone with a midsized sword can kick the ass of someone with a big axe if they have skill (trust me, I do it all the time).

Even if getting more levels after 20 is extremely hard, like levelling in FFXI, that would be EXCELLENT! That means that it's not SUICIDE taking on a boss monster on your own, but it is extemely challenging and it's up to you not to screw up.

But, since I posted this originally I reflected on my fear of redundancy, and I recalled that I neglected to buy better armour until level 9. I was losing 20 hp/second in Old Ascalon when I was attacked because immediately 2 other things would jump in as well. BUT: when I bought armour, I was losing 3 hp/second. I was significantly better-off.
So if better armour and weapons continue to present themselves throughout the game, that would definately off-set the 'level cap', as there's still character development to be achieved.
Skills as well. With two professions you have over 100 skills to be learned. Learning when and where to use them is fantastic.

But, still. Getting marginally better over time is something I'm sure many other people will say is an almost necessary part of an RPG. I would say that the level 20 PvP thing should remain. But in PvE it shouldn't be suicide to go out and play the game when you're at the so called 'endgame'.

First off I say what I mean and mean what I say. Any attitude perceived is not intended towards anyone or anything, more likely it is me being excited in the moment over whatever is being expressed. Merely stating a fact.

Skill does not reside in scimitars attacking faster than a B-Axe, 2 handed sword or even a halbred and emphasizes the lack of skill required in Rune. In fact there is no skill in rune. In Rune all success rests on exp counters for almost every facet of the game (e.g. which player buried the most big bones, or has cast more spells using chaos/death runes; has the most food; can teleport before they die, etc.).

For instance, take a level 70 combat player whose prayer is only 30 and fishing 32, again level based on an exp meter specfic to these areas. That player will lose to a level 50 combat player who has level 43+ prayer and 50+ fishing. After hours of killng hill giants and fishing the exp in those areas alone will qualify them for the spells to protect against magic, ranged, and physical damage, and the level 40 will also be able to have swordies. The level 70, will not lose from your skill, they will lose because of your focus to put exp in areas they have not focused to invest exp into.

In contrast, the skills you have in guildwars certainly cost a skill point, but you don't have to bury bones or fish to gain their use. Combat exp gets you the skill point and attribute points you can adjust to enhance the skills you have. However, you still have to find the trainers to get the skill from and it is a purchase, not some instantaneous event that you work for hours to achieve so you can be on your road to demi-goddom. Also, you only get so many skills to use at once. So you have to think out what skills you need to buy; what skllls will help you with what missions or GvG battle--Skill choices forcing strategy considerations before you begin battle.

With rune you know if you are taking damage from magic/ranged/physical attacks to select the prayer to stop all damage from that attack (How Godly!). No thought of configuration or strategy before the battle, and little really during. You just hit until it's dead in rune, eating the occasional swordie.

Other games used the level system for other reasons, ones that conditioned us and in my experience were showing us how much time we could waste falling asleep chopping wood (It is really boring!), or mining coal (My mining level is 76! In that stat I am in the top 13,000 in Rune--Oh joy! zzzzzz).

Other posters above have told you, and you need to take it to heart: GuildWars is about skill--Skill in a way you have not known in most, if any, other games (I never played diablo but many here seem to find some similarity. Please speak up if it's the skill someone.)

Once you get into GuildWars skills you will see that leveling as you are used to is unnecessary and previous games were merely holding on to a bunch of old pen and paper rules for nostalgic reasons and nothing more.

Again, it has already been said that there is continued character development, and, of course armour and weapons can always be improved, should you have the imagination and find the resources you need. I believe skill points will remain to be awarded as you gain exp (Corrections welcome!). In my experience before the first beta character wipe I remember the exp continuing to accumulate and mazing out, just not counting as a "level" and not enhancing as a level would when it maxed and went to zero. So the skill point becomes a resource you get for every exp accumulation completed after level 20.

Well GuildWars is built around true challenge through skill, not "How can we be just like every other game up to this point in time to set a 'demi-god' path that everyone will follow like lemmings!" Level 20 is the beginning of the game my friend, it is the endtutorial!--This too has been said in prior posts. Also, I don't get the preoccupation with being able to solo missions, to be so godly nothing hurts you. For me the game is worthless then.

Cheers Ristaron and all with my apologies for length

Okay, I hear the caps at lvl 20 and it's reach-able in days, or even weeks. So I play a week, am I done with this game? Or is it another blizzard game - endless raids for the best lewt and then spending hours and then losing due to lack of luck in rolls. I'm getting of WoW due to the endless raiding, and then the /random 100 factor.

So, what do you do after lvl 20? Or do I have the wrong angle.

Thanks in advance.

ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! ERROR CODE 09973#. CALLING FOR ASSITANCE, THIS IS ECHO INDIA CHARLIE FOXTROT!

Another subject *sigh*. Get me clear son I'm gonna say this once, not twice, but once.

1) The game is not about leveling, it's about skill.
2) Besides leveling you can do missions, quests, guild fights, play in the tombs, fight in the arena, explore areas, make friends, and many many more things. THE GAME DOES NOT END AFTER LEVEL 20. IT BEGINS AFTER LEVEL 20.
3) There are no raid, there is no PK'ing, there is no spawn-killing, and there is no grind. There never will be.
4) They will never raise the cap. Never. It would defeat the purpose of the game.

The previous statements will not be repeated, if you ask why, criminal charges will be placed. You will be sent to prison where you will die of your own rotting flesh.

Have a nice day.

LOL Kiwi--- I spit out my koolaid on my keyboard reading your reply. Relax, .. we knew there were going to be an influx of newbs noobs and total n00bs that are going to flood in these upcoming weeks and probably go on for months after the game is released. You just need to put all the good replies in notepad and copy and paste and give them the 'canned' response like most companies do.

Be nice to the noobs!

May I suggest you set aside your preconcieved notions of any other games and do not assume that the next new game will necessarily be like the games you played before. Arena.net is like the "100th" monkey as far as the evolution of gaming is concerned. GuildWars will re-invigorate you to gaming because the burdens of having fun are gone!

Please see my post (#10 right now) at the following link. I linked threads that I hope will help the new and disgruntled gamer alike to realize the GuildWars difference.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0883#post20883

I simply must concurr to the 100th monkey ~~

This game is simply different than anything I have currently played before. It is so refreshing that there are still developers out there with the ingenuity and imagination to conceive such an excellent game to play. I do not know how anyone can browse these theads and not see that this game is simply awsome -simply awsome!

You have entirely the wrong angle, in fact it could be say you're facing backwards.
Refer to other peoples' replies for details.

It's better than some other games. I was playing StarCraft the other day and I maxed my tech tree within a few minutes, since they capped levels at 3 in that game. Three! Got there in a few minutes, then quit the game. Played several matches, always hit level 3 pretty quickly. What a boring game.

What, was there something else to do besides level? What on earth would I do once I've maxed out my stats? No point in continuing the game after that...

"What, was there something else to do besides level? What on earth would I do once I've maxed out my stats? No point in continuing the game after that..."

Invalid comparison, how do you compare an MMO to an RTS? okay, there..

"Besides leveling you can do missions, quests, guild fights, play in the tombs, fight in the arena, explore areas, make friends, and many many more things"

Okay, so I just get skills? So will skills become like trying to get that UBER weapon in other games? Like "omg, I need to kill this boss 1000x to get his skill"

I can do quests in WoW all day, or I can even pretend to quests "Kill 100 xx mob", what makes quests so special?

This is a seriously bad case. First of all: There are no uber weapons. Oh and Quests are fun there aren't kill this 100x more like 5x. But see unlike other games, fighting is actually fun.

No skills are not everything, your own personel skill is the most important thing. But to get skills you need money, and a skill point. Skill points can be attained from, missions, quests, and leveling up.

I recommend you use the search button to find the other hundreds of posts regarding the same topic.

This so explains the problems with the GW community in that other thread.

nice! so after you hit 20 you cant gain skill points through PvE ?

What gives you that idea?
The only thing that changes after you reach level 20 is that you no longer get any more attribute points. You can still gain skills just like before.

A whole lot of threads go into this explanation.

Simply put.. Going from level 1-20 is only building your character and getting you accustomed to how to "operate" your chosen build (attribute distribution).
After reaching level 20 (ascension), there is still a full game of playing to do. Whether it be PvP or PvE (PvM aka). You can join or make a guild; do pick up gaming with friends; run entirely solo with henchmen only.
There is no wrong or right way to play the game. It doesn't end there though. There is also a way to change your secondary proffession after you reach level 20, so that you may learn a different secondary. You will not lose the skills of your first secondary, but they will not get any boosts from your attributes as there will be no points spent in them.
Feasibly you could cycle one character through all the secondaries (5) and have access to ALL skills if you so choose.
The idea behind the skills is using a set number (8) at any given time to your best advantage. The skill is in coordinating those effects with either the missions you are doing at hand or in conjunction with the objectives of the guild team you are on if playing in a guild matchup.

This is NOT ANY TYPICAL online game. This is an entirely unique genre without any precursors to it. This is probably the biggest reason why there are so many of these pre-conceved notions about what one may or belive it to be like as far as what they have played. The most important thing to remember? PLAY it. Best way to understand the motive behind the game is to get into the game. There is no fee EVER for this game; so if you end up not liking it, the only thing you'd be out on is the initial cost of the game CD; not any monthly fees that are tacked on. (BECAUSE there NEVER will be any)

And... if nothing I said makes any impression on you, then perhaps this isn't a game you should try. But I think you would be missing out on a truly unique gaming experience if you didn't try.

One of the main points of doing quests in GW is to advance the story. Guild Wars has an ongoing central plot advanced through cooperative missions that tells a story which will continue into the forseeable future as new chapters are added.

As for gaining skills, there will be several ways to go about it, including questing for them, capturing them from monsters using a Capture Signet, and buying them from trainers, using skill points that you earn by gaining experience.

You really need to play the game to understand what we're talking about, here. Guild Wars is not World of Warcraft. It's not Everquest. It's only vaguely similar to any other MMORPG's you may have played in the past. The emphasis here isn't on killing monsters or doing fetch quests in order to facilitate the illusion of progress that typical level grinds offer. The emphasis here is on actually playing the game and having fun doing it.

Smiggles, in the betas before the character wipe, i had a level 20 character that I maxed out the exp bar on and continued to do quests with, in both of these i continued to get skill points at that time. Since the wipe I don't know if that has been changed as my main character is level 18. So it might still be true, I am not certain at this time.

Also Balbanebeoulve I hope you checked that link from my previous post, I think seeing all the energy of the community will help you understand how much different the game is. Sometimes it takes some time to let go of the past ideology of the "grind" gaming experience, with all its expectations and conditioning.

Well, it would seem that you have made up your mind, so why the post?

This game is not for everyone, no game ever will be, so to that end I have no other advise for you but to say good luck and I hope you find a game that you can play and enjoy.

Guys, Dreamsmith is being sarcastic. If you couldn't tell by his post, then at least notice that one; he's in a guild, and two; he took the trouble of making himself a fancy little animated banner of his GW chars.

I must say this game is truly for me, I have a life (unlike alot of gamers) so it is hard to keep up with all the other players when I join guilds. This game will fix that, not only this...but the graphics look truly amazing and gameplay seems as though it will go on forever! This is the game for me ALL AROUND - and no monthly fee just tops it right off!

Lady's and Gentlemen, today the role of Captain Obvious will be played by;

HotSnack

Thank you