Levels, leveling, level caps, and level 20

whew, i finnaly read all the 10 pages of posts from this thread. it's time to put 2 of my cents here:

i have another (i think strong) argument in favor of level cap 20. let's take for example Lineage 2. i played this game from beta till chronicle 1. and then i got bored of leveling. i want to draw your attention to something else tho' and that is botting. i have read on a lineage 2 forum a complaint against botters (people who use 3rd party programs that move the character and make it level and whatnot) and how they couldnt stand it no longer and will quit. my thought is that level cap 20 will prevent this from happening. this level cap will also be kind of a sorter of bad seeds from the crop as less and less "noobs" will come and more sophisticated and friendly people will take their place (i dont know why but all this kill.kill.kill-level.level.level kinda makes people grumpy and "upsetilish", see causes for ks-ing and pk-ing) .

on another point ill take as example Anarchy Online, but any other "leveling-like-hell" mmorpg could take its place. so, in AO the level cap is 220. but u cannot reach it unless u spend maybe half a year playing hard. i played this game for about a year and a half but never reached 220 (highest was 160). the reason i leveled was not for the sake to level, but so i could be able to explore those areas that were unreacheable for my level (e.g. u need level lvl 200 to enter inferno area). of course i got bored of leveling. what i'm trying to say is that i am an explorer. i spend 3/4ths of my time exploring new zones, doing quests and socializing. so this change that guild wars brings is very welcome and i look forward to finish downloading the client, the BWE to start and aaaaaaa...... cant wait....


p.s. sorry for the last part. im just really anxious to take a sip from the cup full of FUN

I think evolution in a game means more than leveling.

leveling is a way to evolve a character.

but so is expanding the list of skills a character can chose combo's from.

In order to remain captivating to players, some sort of evolution is needed.
If the expansionpacks to Guildwars provide sufficient new gameplay options,
the levelcap of 20 is entirely irrelevant.

I wonder why there are any levels at all in Guildwars. The game is obviously about strategies and tactics; the game design allows for levels, and i highly doubt they added it in "just to look like other mmorpgs".

I think the answer to the "why there are levels at all" should provide a good clue about to the effects of changing a levelcap.

So pls, anyone who knows ?

it is a way to help judge if you should attack that level 9 monster when you are level 3 for one example

oops maybe i should come back later with reinforcements maybe

in that case, would it not be easier to make a "color code" system of say

grey = easy
green = ok
yellow = hard
red = too hard
purple = run while you can

easier then a leveling system, if this was the only argument. Besides, by the very argument in favor of the level cap, namely the game being about tactics instead of levels, a level as indication of a creature's power is flawed: a creature with level 1 and a superb combo of skills would be harder to defeat then a creature level 20 with a poor mismatch of skills.

So, while i thank you for your input, i doubt this is a really satisfying answer.

true

as stated above by the developers the level cap is essentially meaningless

perhaps to give some sense of progress

we are having people with trouble with only a 20 cap

imagine no levels at all and just saying play for 30-50 hours and you are as high as you can get and most people would hear play 30-50 hours and you have beaten the game

maybe Gaile will give us another reason

Pvp, are limited to 20 levels.

RollP, are have no limit on levels. so they just keep on leveling up. I really hate games with caps.. kinda makes you feel restricted to basic mode. plus i maxed to level 20 in just 2 beta weekends. not much challege is it. I maxed out and getting bored. So i started new character, but he maxed out. Again getting bored..

pfft throw guildwars on shelf to collect dust. now what to do..

Guild Wars is kept challenging, fair, and virtually grind-free by limiting the level cap to 20 and allowing you to reach "ascension" within a reletively short amount of time.
It keeps the game challenging by making it so that you can never just run up to a mission (or, most of them... at least past Lions Arch) and just one-hit kill every creature that exists. If you could level to 60, then how would fighting level 28's be challenging in the slightest? And if they wanted to raise the level of all the monsters, wouldn't it just be easier and more beneficial to just leave it where it is right now?
It keeps the game fair by creating a level playing field. In guild wars, you will never get slaughtered by someone just because they are twice your level. If you die, it's because you're opponent was better - or they worked in a team better.
And finally, it eliminates most of the grind by getting rid of the need to replay a mission 6 times just so you can level up to use the next "über" item. You hardly think about leveling in Guild Wars.

One of the main concerns people have about the level cap is it's effect on the length of the game. Since when is the law written in stone that says "content must be directly linked to levels!" Guild Wars has more to do than many crappy RPGs out there the content is just not tied to levels allowing you to move along based on your skill and luck in finding a competant party. In no way does it restrict the content in the game - it, however, might make it so that you get through it faster. But that's unlikely as well because there's just so much to do.

Hate to bring up an old thread. After reading the thread in regards to capping the level to 20, I really didn't think too much about it. However, sitting down and pondering left me thinking I will want more. Maybe it's the EQ in me. But what if we capped the level at 20, but were still able to aquire XP? Just let it keep adding up. It gives us a since of accomplishment. Heck, after so long, maybe even trade it in for something...whatever it may be. Just an idea.

This game is simply amazing. The beta weekend event was awesome! I have never seen such a polished game at this stage prior to release. And not to mention, NO SUBSCRIPTIONS!! OMG..

The cap thing; does it really matter what level you are. Whats the difference between a level 50 guy, and a level 150 guy. The bottom line is that game allows you to explore and enjoy friends regardless of level. SWG tryed to develop a non-level based system and failed. GW is doing it right.

The instance missions in this game are tops!

Anyways, I'm hooked, I hope you are. This is the game I've always wanted to play and never could until now!

Cheers!

I like the lvl 20 cap i mean first off have u looked at the world map? its frickin huge! i got to lvl 11 and just arrived at the ice mountains in one BWE theres tons more to do plenty of items to find monsters to kill and besides it will be a lot easier to star a new character if u dont like the one uve made

Listen to tool

I'm indifferent. Whether or not they raise the level cap isn't a concern to me. Although I would like to see it increase over time, I don't even care enough to argue about it. I'll enjoy it either way.

At first, I was a bit skeptical about the lvl 20 cap. It seemed like a good idea on one hand, being that I quit EQ with 4 chars at lvls 10-20 out of sheer hatred/boredom of the slooooow leveling process. On the other hand, I'm a huge RPG fan, and get a sense of accompolishment from leveling a character to lvl 99,100, or whatever the max is, and 20 seems extremely low. However, 200-300 hours of leveling is very hard to justify, especially when you're being charged per month to do so.

Then I started to come around. You see, GW removes all that nonsense waste of time leveling up. Rather then spending your precious time grinding for days/weeks/months/years, you can actually get on to the more enjoyable parts of the game such as exploring, doing tougher quests, meeting new people, finding new items, you know - the actual game. Camping near some uber experience mobs for days isn't my idea of a good time.

The important thing, is that there is some sort of progression/sense of accompolishment. You don't need leveling in order to progress in this game, which is a very good thing. We get to go almost immediately to the real substance of the game, rather than being stuck leveling up forever when we could be having more fun actually experiencing different challenges in the game, or even spend some IRL time.

If you want to level forever this isn't your game. I hope that they don't end up turning this game into that, because then, it will no longer be my game either.

I'd still like to see harder areas unlocked and possible to accomplish with higher levels. 20 seems rather low, even if it was 50?

50 is a number, just the same as 20. The only difference, is you are forced into leveling up for hours to get to where you want to go. Right now, skill determines how far you can get.

Why would leveling up for hours make this game any more enjoyable? It's a waste of time, especially if you can get to the same areas at a lower level. Sure, leveling up would make you "stronger", but the game would then just make enemies stronger to compensate for that.

They can still make the game fun and challenging and have 20 the max level. Level should have nothing to do with how much you enjoy the game. The content is what matters.

I do not understand why on earth so much people are whining about this lvl 20 cap. This is really the first game in which the journey (playing, questing, even item searching ...) is a lot more fun than the destination, being lvl 20.
Too much people do not understand (in my opinion that is) that this game was not designed just to get to a certain lelvel, but to have a Role Playing experience, about fun while venturing into wastelands and battling the foes.

Please don't let the level of a character destroy her/his opportunities: It has been said before, but I will gladly repeat that this way favours skill in stead of potential playing time.

MMO-grind=GW

MMO=the usual rable
grind=ZZZZZZZ
GW=OMFG i made poo in pants

I just hope the new areas and such as they add on are like Underworld and Fissure in terms of rewards, new stuff, but nothing game-breaking. Even the new bows had nothing over half-moon/short bow in terms of kill power, though eternal was pretty well rounded. I actually hate bows like Shadow Bow or Horn Bow, they have no real use other then their insane straight trajectory, which no one cares about if your fire rate is like, 2.7; whoopy do.

Everyone who complains about the level cap need to understand this. Without that level cap, GuildWars cannot accomplish it's goals. Without it the game would require grind time, You could not compete nearly as well in arenas and guild wars, And a lot of the game would just be leveling up, Which would completely destroy GuildWar's purpose. Trust me, The level cap is a good thing to have. Anyways, it doesn't get easier as you progress into the game.

It appears that a large number of people seem to find GuildWars appealing for it's differences, yet, do not take into consideration how those differences shape the entire game. Any one difference isn't a pigeon holed and separated attribute, such as the level 20 cap does not stand by itself. I know it's hard to believe after playing the run-of-the-mill rpgs that follow the traditional grind thinking so that two players can battle each other for 3 hours without dieing only to have one teleport away and both look for that other uber item they must have missed, but the game mechanics in GuildWars are actually interrelated. This means: If you came to GuildWars for it's differences, then you came to enjoy all the interrelated components that give effect to that difference. This is why wuggested changes to the level cap, for instance, are to suggest changes to the entire game, changes that are detrimental to why you the suggestor are attracted to this game. In other words, If you came for the differences now respect them and quit trying to make this game like the rest that you are not playing as often for the exact reason: "They are all the same. I am bored with them." (i.e. The grind.) and/or "Everyone has the same uber demigod life leaching invulnerability sword from hell that I have--It's not fair!" Really? So it was fair when one person had the uber demigod life leaching invulnerability sword from hell alone? Interesting sense of "balance" we get taught by these other games.

One of my favorite pieces of simultaneous contempt and humour is reading the suggestion thread. So many want to talk about level or this or that exploitable advantage apparenly not realizing these "advantages" are entirely time played reward reasoned (old school of grind). This is however while yet they want there to be more new skills at the skill trainers and there should be more skill trainers to find skills easier, more "spread out."

So this means: Have a time played reward (grind) that is accomodated by mapping more skill trainers with less repetitive skill selection but "newer ones" (a skill grind). It appears they want RuneScape and probably do play that too--complaining to the developer that "RuneScape graphics is not as good as GuildWars and it's only in beta!" I mean aren't we all just hoping Arena.net implement a skill grind so we can say "GuildWars? Oh that's just another mmorpg. I got bored doing the blah blah mission to get this blah blah skill that I have to have to PVP." One could easily replace the first blah blah mission with "kill the level 60 dragon on Crandor" and the second blah blah skill with "rune platemail." Don't forget you almost definitely die without the "anti-dragon shield." Oh joy! The days of single item dependency remembered. With GuildWars the grind becomes another piece of history, a nostalgic relic in computer gaming to be discussed on the History Channel's "electronic age" segment.

Personally I find only one use for grinders--coffee beans!

There's a lot more to the different systems than just grinding. That's simply how current games use it.

Guild Wars is one of the first role playing game on-line not based on a time reward system. It's why I strongly believe that Guild Wars is high above all the other RPG on-line games : what makes you win or lose is the comprehension of the game system, not the hours you spent on playing (because you're 14 years old and you can allow yourself to play 12 hours a day).

Guild Wars is the fist on-line role playing game base on a Strategic Reward system. You're rewarded not on the hours spent, but on your abilities. Of course, more you know a game, higher are the chance that youre abilities will grow. But it's the same thing for all games. I bet that if you play chess for the first time versus someone who has played at the game for ages, you'll lose (or you're a genius, that can happen ). Still, everyone when understanding the system has the same chance to win. And personnaly, I just love game that push you and also your team to be smarter in your strategies. That's the interest in killing rabbits for days to reach level 3 ?

Purpose of leveling is only here to make you learn the game and play with less skills than a level 20 players. If the level cap is ever raised, that will be problably the most stupid design choice made by the game developpers. And as the game developpers strongly believes (and I think they're right) that the future of role playing on-line is on Gameplay mechanics based on Strategic Reward systems and not Time Reward systems, I'm not anxious at all.

Can you still get attribute points, to make your skills stronger, after 20?

200 total stops at 20

Good topic and I’ll throw my two cents in since I see what I believe to be both good points and myths in this thread.

“GW is completely different than other MMORPGs so trying to compare them is a waste of time.”

FALSE

GW is actually very similar in almost every way to games like EQ/WoW etc.. There ARE important differences and the topic of this thread is one of them. Still it is a multiplayer game set in a fantasy environment with spells, swords, levels, quests, and teamwork that is really very similar to a game like WoW/EQ/DAOC/UO and such.

“The problem with having a level cap is that my character can’t grow anymore.”

FALSE

This is the primary misconception. Yes, everyone likes the feeling of growth and the idea of one’s character suddenly being “frozen” isn’t very appealing regardless of the situation.

The key to understanding this is that there are three ways that a character can grow: 1) grow in power, 2) grow in abilities (options), 3) grow in how well the player uses the available options the character has.

If you look at most of the other games similar to GW level combines number 1 and 2 on the above list. In other words, in order to play with new “toys” and have more options you MUST level. What GW does is separates 1 and 2 starting at level 20. In other words, your character no longer needs to level in order to acquire new spells, combat moves, and the other “goodies” that we have learned to associate with leveling.

Also, regarding point 3, all MMORPGs have skill in them to varying degrees. One of the advantages to GW is that this has been more emphasized from the starting design than in any other game yet. Note that even if your character does not grown in relative power (e.g. your hits do more damage to a lower level) this focuses the game on 2 and 3 which are where, for most people, most of the fun is anyway. Getting new abilities, choosing how to combine them, then applying them to either PvE, or PvP play, then becomes the heart of the game. Growing in “level power”, as has been pointed out, is really not necessary.

“The advantage to having a level cap that stays constant is that more content stays relevant for longer.”

TRUE

Indeed, this is a very important point. Compare two games: one has 100 levels with 3 areas designed for each level while the other game has 20 levels with 3 areas designed for levels 1-19 and 150 designed for level 20. Which game is putting doing a better job at making sure the content is still useful to players in the long run?

Don’t forget that what makes a game fun is CHALLENGE. This means that the power of your character is approximately equal to the enemies you face be they PvP or PvE.

If new PvE content is all based on level 20 difficulty and new skills can be attained that can combine and allow for fresh tactics then there is no reason that this would not be 100% as fun as climbing a ladder where you and the creatures each keep adding a level every X hours of play.

“A fast leveling curve just means that I’ll get bored faster”

FALSE

The causes of boredom are repetition, stagnation, and lack of challenge. The main fear seems to be that GW won’t have anything to offer at cap and while some posters have tried to explain what can be done at cap, the responses have seemed to lack focus.


I think the key to understanding this is the promises of new skills and new content. If you think about it, there are only two things that leveling up in other MMORPGs gives you a) new skills, b) access to new content. By claiming that they will offer many new level 20 skills in expansions along with new level 20 content, it seems clear that that are offering everything that other games are. This is a very important point.

So, getting to 20 fast makes sense if that is where the lion’s share of content is going to reside.

Hopefully this expands a bit on this topic and will be useful to those who are attempting to understand how GW actually compares to the competition.

I think that a level increase past 20 would be good for expansion packs in the RPG part to the game, it would allow increase challanges to the new quests and also allow new skilles to be learned. However with the PvP part of the game, I do think their should be a cap as far as levels go. But also I think that every character should be at the same level, this way the contests will be more about team play and tactics then overall character strengths.

So this way it is fair to all types of players, I know for one I just like the RPG types of game play and am not much for the PvP types of game play, so should players like me be resticted to a character level cap. I think that would be a little unfair, but if we were to partisapate in a PvP and the level cap was 20 and I wanted to use my RPG character and his level was 30, then upon transfering to that game areana his level would be set at the cap as well as his skilles. To be only fair.

"I think that a level cap at 20 would be good for expansion packs in the RPG part to the game, it would allow increase challanges to the new quests and also allow new skilles to be learned."

Fixed.

But seriously, how many times do people need to explain that your level doesn't HAVE to directly link to challenge/difficulty/skills/fun/power.

I'm getting worried. I mean, everyone talks about how Anet is pretty good at listening to customer suggestions...how many thousands of "Increase the level cap!" posts/suggestions will it take before they listen? I hope they hold true to their vision, because I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LEVEL JUST TO EXPERIENCE THE GOOD PARTS OF THE GAME AND HAVE FUN.

Leveling just drags the game out and feels like a chore, that....is not fun. Adding new areas, new challenges, new gameplay elements...that is fun.

Forgive me if this has been said before, I read about 5 pages and my eyes hurt.

But a level 20 level cap is great for PvE. It actually makes an mmo non-linear. I know, I know. It's a huge open world, how can an mmo possbily be linear?

Think about it though. Every game has certain level sections. I'm going to use Lineage 2 for example, since it's the last mmo I've been playing.

Level 1 - 5, you stay around town. Levels 5 - 10, go over the hill. 10 - 20, you go to your dungeon, or Gludin. 20 - 25, Abandoned Camp. 25 - 30 EG. And so forth and so forth and so forth. It's the same in every game. You have a certain section to go to at a certain level, and your guided the whole way. If you started late, or re-rolled, everyone has levelled past you, good luck finding a group.

Guild Wars, you start in Ascalon. You level a little there. You go to Old Ascalon, you level a little there. Then suddenly, the entire map, and it's a huge freakin map, is open for you to explore and see. And since everyone maxes there, if you take a little longer to get there, i.e. a casual gamer, you still won't be screwed because people won't be to high to party with you.

This is a revolutionary game. It's trying to change the way that mmo's play, and you have to stop thinking of the grind, and think of the gameplay experience.

And besides, even if you are pve, if you decide to pvp every now and then, and I know you will, there won't be some level 9999999 hanging out in areas where levels 5 go pretending to be uber.

I think people remain confused for two reasons:

1) They have already done it a different way e.g. +level = +character growth & +content access and,

2) It isn't clearly explained how GW wuill provide growth without leveling.

Unless playing the same character in PvP forever is acceptable for you, most players DO want to keep growing their character.

What isn't seen is that what growth really is is getting new abilities.

They are right to say that in other games you must level to see new content, grow, and thus have fun. Also, since the new skills will probably mostly be in future expansions, it is right for them to say that once they get to 20 and see the content in the game prior to expansions that the growth will essentially stop.

Of course, this is true of all games like GW too. All content is limited and will stop eventually. What they are not seeing is that level and new skills can be separated and you can get new "goodies" e.g. spells, combat moves, stances, all sorts of abilities AND access to new and fresh content with the expansions without the need to level.

It also goes too far to claim that adding more levels would "ruin" the game. Fact is it just isn't necessary and it would make content obsolete that doesn't need to be obsolete if you keep the cap fixed. That is the main advantage to it (along with easier balancing of PvP) and it is a large advantage.

As for GW being a revolutionary game? Not really. I never felt a grind in UO either. Yes, EQ is grinds-ville and a few of the clones after it are also, but what GW does is takes elements from Diablo 2, EQ, and MtG and makes the teamwork RPG experience a bit better.

GW is not the first game to have a level cap, not the first game to allow a character to be capped in 25ish hours of play (I did many in UO in that time), and not the first game to have fun PvP (although they did a good job on PvP overall).

GW has plenty of problems and I could fill a page with them, but as far as this topic goes, they are 100% right to say that as long as new content and character growth is supported that adding levels adds nothing to a game. Now, explaining this to people who are used to another approach is another thing entirely.

Hi, ok...i slowly think i can live with the level-cap. Even when i never want to PvP.
But one thing....how to make the Game funny after a while ? Like 1 Year ?

I Explored everything, i got the best Armor, i got the best weapons and all skills.

Ok, then i buy a expansion...but for balancing all new items and so one are the same as before with new grafik ?
They can´t do in a cooler sword, or a kick-ass Skill because the balancing....

Also in fact i stay there with the same old crap...or ?

This is about what iam thinking
(Now Knock me down with Words...)

The trick is to understand what you get in any RPG expansion:

1) new areas to explore, quests, story line, items, etc.,

2) new character abilities e.g. spells, combat moves, and such.

If you get an expansion for WoW or for GW, either way, you'll get this stuff.

The only difference is in GW is that instead of leveling-up to get access to the new abilities, you'll quest for them which amounts to almost the same thing.

The problem is thinking that a new cool sword is only cool due to it giving a bigger bonus and this is where it is hard to understand. For those people who are impressed with an additional +5 damage on a sword that then must face 5 more armor (for example) you really got nothing.

What makes a new sword REALLY cool, is stuff like special abilities that allow your character to do new things e.g. fly, become invisible, combine with other abilities, help teammates in new ways, etc... Not necessarily more powerful things over all, but NEW things. It is all about a fresh game play experience and tweaking numbers doesn't provide that; not really.

I can see how people get confused about this, I really do. I sure hope that GW doesn't suffer for it, because I stopped being impressed with getting a +5 sword vs. the new +100 hit point creature about 10 years ago and really like that they are trying to change this illusion to something more substantial.

I think this sounds cool to me too

Ok. lets Hope they never get tired of new Ideas in the Future !

people are going to have to change their concepts regarding levels

more levels doesn't = more content
more levels = more grind

guild wars is centered around pvp
WoW, Eq2, and the less-popular clones are centered around PvE

if you don't want to pvp, or don't want to pvp much, then guild wars is probably not the best choice for you

I currently play WoW, but just canceled my subscription. There is basically no point in participating in pvp in that game until you are level 60. I don't have large blocks of time in which to play games, so it would take me a few months to reach lvl 60, and start having fun in pvp. Quests bore me, so the prospect of spending a few more months grinding to 60 has no appeal to me.

in guild wars, i'll have at least one ascended character (lvl 20) to pvp with after about one week of casual gameplay, or less if i want to dedicate an entire weekend to gaming.

so one huge benefit to the way the levels are structured is that it opens up pvp without having to spend months, and months grinding up.

another aspect that makes this game different to all those others is the lack of a monthly fee. All those other games can coast for months and months and months with no content updates while they make millions in monthly subscription revenue. If guild wars producers want to get paid they need to develop and release new expansions. This virtually guarantees very frequent content updates...maybe every 2 months.

All that new content will be designed for lvl 20 toons.

SWG gaming cycle:
grind professions to max for a month
pvp if you can stomach the imbalance
grind jedi for about a year when you get bored of everything else
then keep grinding till you quit

WoW gaming cycle:
grind for a few months to 60
pvp if you can stomach the imbalance
wait for content (which so far has taken about 5 months to crank out the first major content patches)

GW gaming cycle:
immediately start pvping with a pvp-only pre-made toon and level a 'roleplay' toon to lvl 20 at your leisure
take the first 2 or 3 months to explore all the content and pvp options
get the new content expansion
repeat

they have already stated that some expansions will allow us to create new races, professions, and offer additional character slots which will also help to keep us busy

I came from MU, a MMORPG, surelly known for many people around here.
Personally I think that the Level Cap is a good thing because it makes players strong by their skill, instead of by the time spent playing. What I mean is,
for instance, where I come from, To be a strong char I MUST spend hundreds of hours playing to get higher and higher level...
Even though I didn't play the Beta, it seems that GW requiers a lot more planning on how to distribute your "experience" to become a strong char. This way, you are good if you are smart, not if you have a whole day to be playing getting yourself more levels.
Raising the level cap isn't such a good idea because, it seems to me, players will be able to master many disciplines instead of one or two and everybody will have uber builds, therefore lowering the need to choose and use skills wiselly.
Best regards.

P.S. This is based on what I read on this forum and GW site. Since I didn't play the game there might be inaccuracies. Feel free to correct me if that is the case

I have played the Beta version of the game, and clearly the advanced quests have to be played with a group in the RPG part of the game. GW does allow you to pick NPC to play with that are at a set level. Also you could be a level three and still be able to aquire every spell or skill a certain proffession can possess. As you level up, it is importain to were you place your skill points to better your characters skills. I can see that some feel that this should be limited, since some could design their character to be "ALL Powerful", thus making it unfair in the PvP game modes. I also noticed that the ones who collect the most raw materals, have the best armor. All of this has nothing to do with leveling, the only thing you gain is attibute points and increased health points.

I now see what most of you are saying about having a level cap, and having it set ar 20.

I wonder if there should be special levels, for example in GW there is a tournament, the guild that wins, all partisapating characters andvance one level passed the max as reconition of their achevment, may be even given a new skill to go with that level.

Now I know some may think that, that guild will keep winning, the rule would be if yopu won the last tournament that your guild or the characters that partisapated in that guild would have to sit the next 2 tournaments out.

[QUOTE=Chris Blackstar]

I wonder if there should be special levels, for example in GW there is a tournament, the guild that wins, all partisapating characters andvance one level passed the max as reconition of their achevment, may be even given a new skill to go with that level.

QUOTE]

no way

that is a game balance breaker if i ever saw one

again ...no

If you look at other real games of skill like Chess, Go, Golf, and such, they actually do it the opposite way. The handicap goes to the weaker player e.g. if anything, the most losing guilds should get an extra level to create more challenging play for everyone.

A really good guild wouldn't want a bonus, but they might want to spot you a rook to finally get a challenge

I played a beta of Guild Wars and loved it from the start. I think the level cap is a good thing(as most people are saying) because you dont have to spend hundreds of hours playing to be good. I play CoH and it took me over 500 hours to reach the max level. That was a waste of my time and i regret it ever since because the game is boring now. But to thoughs who dont want there to be a level cap there should be a serperate level type of thing that doesnt reflect on hit points or how your charecter will play but a little title that says that they reached a certain level.

Well, I´ve read all the posts , I´m a newbie here but here´s my suggestion of what should happen when expansions come out.

The lvl cap of 20 is cool since the focus is on your deck of skills, and with the expansions you could always make better builds (the bigger the deck, the better the options... that alone should keep PvP/GvG alive in the long term).

What I think would be awesome to keep PvE alive is 1) more powerful enemies, and 2) increase the limit of party members to face these more powerful enemies.

Think how fun it would be to gather a party of 15 and face an extremelly powerfull giant/dragon (who is let´s say lvl 50) and his minions for example.

With larges parties we could also have quests that feels like war. Have an army of players versus an army of charrs for example.

These are just some ideas I have...

Changing the level cap would change the very premise of what the designers promised.

GW's is not about time sink. They want to de-emphasize the power of levels and items and reward skill instead.

we hate mindless leveling. period