Instead of saying expertise overpowered, why not say other primaries underpowered?
Thanks to the attribute, rangers are saved from being restricted to archer characters, e.g. touch rangers, thumpers, etc.
IMO, other primaries should be done in a similar level to encourage variety in primary builds.
Regarding touchies, I play RA a decent amount, and yes, they are very common, but I have yet to feel them being overpowered. If there is any build/class that can tip the winning chance in RA, that would be proper monks (not melee/smite ones).
EDIT:
Yes, I know monks are not required to win. But please do not lie to ourselves that monk's contribution to a team is just on par with the rest of the classes =/
The very few, if not the only, build that does not need a monk is IWAY, and it has been nerfed, which is quite saddening really.
lyra_song
Hell's Protector
Join Date: Oct 2005
R/Mo
06 Jun 2006 at 03:29 - 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulu123
Here's a Guild Wars description of Divine Favor the attribute. "For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast Monk spells on them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to energy gain and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor." Do you know what that means? That DF is basically useless for any secondary profession skill/spell unlike Expertise.
So basically I am still waiting to see an example of that monstrous synergy between DF and some secondary profession skill.
Divine Boon, Offering of the Blood. Oh wait that got nerfed, thats how good that synergy was.
But unlike a Boon Prot, a Touch Ranger cant single handedly control a battle.
Vermilion Okeanos
Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 03:46 - 83
When I go into RA arena, my fighters/casters must be built to be anti boon prot.
I would take 1 skill with me in case of touch ranger.
That does kind of say both of them is over powered. As I always have to be ready to fight them as a threat, while there are no other build around that is as much pressuring as these 2. It is probably just these 2 are much more spread in population. But we do take anti warrior all the time, warrior must be godly too.
Expertise = godly
Skill (not spell, not attack) = godly
Life Steal = godly
Contemplation of Purity = godly
Knock Down = godly
The only reason Rit is not a good healer comparing to boon prot is that rit don't have CoP, hex tear rit apart. Most of them start using expel hex, but that is still far from being able to compare to CoP. CoP is not even an elite.
Considering Anet nerfed MM, they should nerf this too. Personally, I wouldn't have nerf neither.
Zorian Direspell
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 04:06 - 84
I hate touch rangers (clone-skill touch rangers anyway, as I will concede the point that Prophecy only skill rangers are fine). I think the recharge (on Vamp touch skills) should be taken from 2 to 4 seconds, minimum (or they should be Skill -you become enchanted with (or receive condition) Vampirism. Your next successful attack steals X life, as this would allow for stripping and attack interruption or condition removal and attack disruption). And before someone tries telling me to "try playing one", I did. I went from random to teams in no time before losing 6-5 in sudden death to a Korean team (because someone got seperated from our group).
Our group wasn't balanced. It had two mesmers, a fire ele, and me. We didn't do much to offset each others weaknesses. But it didn't matter. With the build I played, I had 75% evasion (goodbye interrupting attacks) almost constantly, 25% faster speed (goodbye snares), condition removal and causation (goodbye anything not a hex ... oh, and your monk is bleeding now), a self heal for 65 per second (goodbye damage), and 65 dps (goodbye opponent). On a character with a base 75 armor (105 vs. elements).
The problem wasn't that the class couldn't be countered, it was that it did so many things, it was so self-contained, and so potentially devastating, that it took the focus of several foes at a time to deal with me (ineffectually as you can see). The only skills that consistently were a thorn in my side were blackout when coupled with degen hexes, and that only worked if I was feeling stupid enough to let a mesmer running at me get that close. In the TA battle I only died once (all four vs. me) and scored three of our kills, with the two others being made as the enemy ran from me.
The result of this situation is that the R/N substitutes skills for skill. The R/N has only one true concern, mesmers, and almost no limit on how far from the group they can extend or how long they can last. At least with an IW mesmer you can strip an enchantment (something that hurts many classes and builds). An assassin has to connect to hit, actually won't hit as hard,, and is subject to warrior hate. An air spike ele can be dropped with ease if someone knows what they're doing. An R/N is like all of these, but it uses less energy, has better defense, carries no enchantments, and has faster recharging skills. That an R/N need not even have the skill of the average assassin or IW mesmer for doing essentially the same thing is cause for concern. A nerf is needed.
lactatemike
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2006
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 04:14 - 85
I've got an idea, how about every single time a build comes along that you have to think of a way to overcome we call it overpowered and bitch and cry until it gets nerfed???
Sound good?
I mean, THINKING about a way to beat a set of skills really is just terribly inconvenient, isn't it? Why don't all you whiney people who just rag on creative builds think this over while you buy gold on ebay?
Edit: And how does a build that more often than not dies against two opponents (pvp) seem too powerful?
And don't just attribute this to me having a touch ranger, because while I do have one, I have also died a lot because of them.
I'm just SICK of people saying "Oh it's too hard and my normal build that I NEVER change doesn't work against it, so nerf it plz!!!"
Zorian Direspell
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 04:23 - 86
Quote:
Why don't all you whiney people who just rag on creative builds think this over while you buy gold on ebay?
I would never think to whine about a creative build, but touch rangers aren't creative. They're obvious, generally skill-less and most likely used by those very e-bayers you so despise (who, I would imagine, also scoop net builds because they can't do things for themselves)
ed: stupid keyboard goofed my last sentence.
pork soldier
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jul 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 04:32 - 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGiant
They do wreck it a bit IN RANDOM ARENAS, they are overpowered (if you don't believe me please play random arenas for a few days Monk + Toucher = eek)
BUT this is because teams have only 4 random players so unless you've specifically got a skill or two to counter them they are extremely hard to take down simply because of the randomness of the team.
Try hammer warrior next time, a knocked down michael jackson can't touch you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
To be absolutely blunt; the counter to Touch Rangers is to not suck at this game.
They are a build, like IWAY, which beats bad players very quickly. A good team will have absolutely no problem against them at all. They are a ridiculous gimmick. As someone stated earlier; they weed out the bad teams from RA, much like IWAY weeds out the bad teams from the early rounds of HA.
Seriously, learn to play.
This is still so true.
Shendaar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 04:50 - 88
I hate people that keeps saying those who say they are overpowered are not thinking and do not know how to play the game.
Like every build, there are also counters to the Touch Ranger, but the counters to them are much less numerous than any other build. It takes alot of effort to bring one down and in non GvG situation, you won't always have the necessary skills ready or available to take them down. The problem is not that they can't be beaten, the problem is that compared to all the other builds I have seen, only the Touch Ranger can substain that amount of hate and yet still tear through whoever it is attacking.
I gave them a chance when I first saw them come into play and I perfectly realise that they are counters to them, but I have come to the conclusion that they are atleast slightly overpowered. The complete lack of available protection against Life Stealing is I think the main issue here. Kiting only delays the inevitable and asking everyone to carry a crippling skill because of 1 single build in the game is just being stupid in my opinion.
I have no problem understanding how a Touch Ranger would get obliterated in GvG, but some people like me enjoys to PvP in Fort Aspenwood for example and when a duo of two Touch Ranger completly destroys all of your NPCs and make it to the gatekeepers and manage to kill them regarless of how many enchantements you stack on them I think there is a problem. Now if only we would have had someone to cripple them, but there are such things as random parties in GW and I don't think that makes us sucky players now does it? Oh and lets not talk about what they can accomplish when backed by a monk.
Zui
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2006
The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]
Mo/
06 Jun 2006 at 04:56 - 89
For everyone still crying for a nerf(even though I'm quoting someone):
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
First off, the only place they might be overpowered is RA, so that's what I'll talk about.
Somthing being overpowered needs to be applicable to everywhere. The only places people seem to have any problem with touch rangers is RA, and ABs. Amazingly, theese have theese PvP areas have the absolute lowest skill level of all PvP areas. Hmm, is this reflective of the build being overpowered, or the players being bad? Well, if we look at mid and upper level PvP, no one has any problems with them, and laugh when they see them. This means that it's reflective of the players. Not overpowered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
Many people like to look down on that game type but IMO it's something you have to keep in mind.
No one would look down upon Random Arena if it had compitent players that played to win. The same goes for ABs, but it's compitent teams now, which should be much easier to assemble. The same even goes for HA to a lesser extent. People are looking down upon theese forms of PvP because of the players, not because the forms of PvP are essentialy bad(ok.. HA is both).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
And just because counters exist for something doesn't automatically mean it's fine balance-wise. A lot of otherwise balanced and fun RA builds just plain get beaten by touch rangers, and there's nothing you can do about it.
You can beat touch rangers using pure tactics alone. Useful skills that are essentialy "must have" for any team in any situation aid in this, they also aid versus any single other team there is, meaning there's no balance issue with people bringing them. RA is individual builds, not team builds, you can't have a single charactar be balanced. If you're talking about "fun RA builds" you mean builds built to own scrubs or to use some lame gimmick(such as grenths balance me/n 'spike') that only works against scrubs, using theese types of builds is part of the reason you're loosing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
Sure, you can run, but if you don't have a decent monk on your team (by no means guarunteed in RA), you're just making yourself useless for a while, then dying. Zojun's Haste and Dodge will see to that.
Ok, so you're essentialy useless, and you have 3 rangers chasing you that are also now essentialy useless. Hmm... That's more than a fair trade. Even if it's just one or two rangers, it gives your team an advantage even without a monk. It requires your other team members to be compitent to win, and is that too much to ask? They can kill whoever isin't chasing you since it's either an even match, or they have a distinct numbers advantage. After the rest of their team dies, they can focus on killing a ranger. If you die, it's called a res sig, again expecting compitence. They have speed boosts, you may have no snares, say won't kiting them make them stop for oh say 3/4 of a second every time they use a touch skill, and then make them catch back up to you again? Sounds like a decent trade to me, especaily when it's more than 1 ranger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
To suggest every person's build should take a snare or bring e-denial is just shortsighted. Diversion might be okay but in general dom mesmers in RA just get reamed.
Well, if you're not running a sub-par build you're likely going to have something that's useful against touch rangers, a hex or condition snare, knockdown, shutdown(inturupts, diversion, blackout...), healing, somthing that causes degen. Anyone without at least one of those in a build is running a bad build, unless of course you can think of one up to par non-gimmick that's lacking one of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
Not to mention Cripple-based snares have a good chance of backfiring with Plauge Touch.
Ok, ranger = bow = ranged. Hey ranger being a ranged attacker... Warrior = melee. Say, hamstring+sprint or rush? Maybe even not that, ever think of running somthing like Shock for a snare?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
They are pretty boring to play, but they can make RA just un-fun by severely limiting viable builds.
Please name one of theese supposed viable builds that isin't sub-par.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
(edit) I think a good solution would be to up the recharge to 4 seconds, so it takes a little more dedication to get good DPS, rather than having 5 slots open for running/defense/condition removal.
Umm, well with the types of players touch rangers actualy beat, they could set up QZ before the match and no one would kill it, and they'd get longer run times with less run skills.
Why nerf somthing that only beats bad players using bad builds? While you're at it, nerf warriors, since they're actualy good against good teams. Seriously, there's no excuse at all anyonefor loosing to a touch ranger. None. Stop whining about them being overpowered and crying for a nerf, and perhaps ask yourself "how can I beat touch rangers?", or perhaps "what did I do wrong?", "what did my team do wrong?", and always "how can what went wrong be improved".
Zui
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2006
The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]
Mo/
06 Jun 2006 at 05:02 - 90
@ Sheendar
The useful skills for countering touch rangers are also useful against every single type of build you face in practicaly every situation. Shock, Gale, Blackout, Diversion, Crippling Shot, Pin Down, Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes... Get the drift? No one is asking you to take skills you normaly wouldn't take. The skills that happen to be pretty good against normal builds, happen to be truely devestating against touch ranger teams.
Shendaar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 05:07 - 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zui
Why nerf somthing that only beats bad players using bad builds?
Thats quite a stupid comment. So according to your logic, any build that beats another player's build means that the losing player is a bad player using a bad build. Sorry, but your logic is just plain retarted. So I guess if my ele gets destroyed by anti-caster mesmer that makes me a bad player too? WTF Makes sense!
Like I said, some players like me enjoys to play in RAs and the like and that doesn't make me or anyone else a bad player. The only thing you seem to care about is GvG or anywhere else where the teams are prefefined, but I guess this is common among the so called "elite" players.
nitrile
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 05:11 - 92
I've come across a number of touch rangers in alliance battles, myself playing as monk, mesmer or assassin. I do not find them spectacularly dangerous or threatening either by themselves (1 toucher and 3 others) or 4 touchers as a group. Now certainly there's the argument that all I've seen so far were pretty bad at it but I've had much more trouble with rangers who were being rangers, i.e. with a bow or traps. People getting into serious trouble with touch rangers need to realise that having to run up to you is an obstacle to them you can use. It's about time every monk wasn't made quasi-invincible by guardian and/or protective spirit - this development is logical progression in an arms race.
Regarding numbers I maybe see toucher(s) about once in every two alliance battles but obviously even to me they're the new flavour of the 'month' build. If there's really swarms in RA then the equations change and it needs to be adjusted - a lack of variety on iway levels and everyone will get bored, even the so-called faction farmers and it's not a good thing for the future. But extreme overuse (ordinary overuse = w/mo) is the only grounds I'd consider it for adjustment.
I must admit I'm not sure what anet were thinking duplicating a skill with such short recharge already - if they were 'asking for trouble', it would seem it's arrived.
Moving off on a tangent, I love the concept of playing certain roles with primary attributes from another class. E/A dagger users, Me/E air spikers, R/W warriors, n/mo monks and so many others. It's a great idea and makes for the option for doing something unexpected or even more practical in some situations which will often get you more than doing something everyone already knows. The primary attibutes usually say something significant about the intended/anticipated purpose of the class. Some primaries are more specific than others (monk) because that's what that class does. Expertise is a great fun primary. A ranger is only the absolute first choice for a few roles, but you're not often sure what a ranger could be about to do next either and this is what expertise means. Applying it only to ranger skills makes it meaningless. It would be far worse than having a few too many unskilled r/n touchers if instead everytime you saw a ranger it was in a spike team.
ChildeOfMalkav
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 05:13 - 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
If it were up to me, I'd simply make it so that Expertise does not effect non-ranger skills. This would cutdown on the end-season thumper spam (OMG, I wanna get top 20 by then of the season... THUMPER TYME!!2!!!) and the RA touch rangers. Expertise would still be the single most overpowered primary attribute, but atleast it'd see SOME attention, as far as balancing goes.
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys?
Since you've been condescending on your first post in this thread without even provocation from anyone else, I'm going to call you a pompous moron.
How exactly is a ranger thumper overpowered? Give us some reasons instead of some bullcrap propaganda. If you think Ranger thumpers are more damaging than warrior ones you really have no clue.
And yes it's a damn good thing you're not a dev. The game would be pure utter crap.
As for the argument that because Divine Favour doesnt affect other profession skills so Expertise should affect non ranger skills is such a dumbass argument I feel like I shouldnt have to discuss it but I will.
Divine Favour is the exception to the rule. Every other primary attribute affects other profession skills either directly or indirectly. Soul Reaping/Energy Storage for instance don't affect skills but still contribute extra energy to use those skills.
Divine Favour is the exception because if it did affect other non monk healing skills think about how overpowered it would be to be healed with DF with any attack skill or spell. Think about that and stop with the dumbass arguments.
Vermilion Okeanos
Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 05:18 - 94
Now that I think about it... The biggest reason why this should be nerf is for the future.
In the later chapter, there will defintely be even more "pure skill" that make ranger even more godly.
This expertise + skill thing will eventually be nerf I believe. Sooner or later.
ChildeOfMalkav
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 05:33 - 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos
Now that I think about it... The biggest reason why this should be nerf is for the future.
In the later chapter, there will defintely be even more "pure skill" that make ranger even more godly.
Uhhh what are your sources? And how does more skills equal to overpowered? As long as you can only have 8 on your bar more "pure skill" skills doesnt mean overpowered, just more variety.
That's like saying monks should be nerfed now because in upcoming chapters they will have even more healing spells.
Tark Alkerk
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2005
In a Black Hole
less
E/
06 Jun 2006 at 05:38 - 96
gah all this talk of touch rangers being overpowered is making me sick
ChildeOfMalkav
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 05:44 - 97
What makes me even more sick of talk of nerfing expertise just because a few idiots dont like touch rangers. Leave expertise the F--- alone.
TwinRaven
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 05:59 - 98
I've been playing a touchie since I deleted my first ranger Twin Raven...a nice little R/E that seemed fun at the time. My "new" ranger/nec is a wee bit over nine months old and I've been snatching life away from folks since I started it. Over time I've rearranged skills until I found just the right combo. With the addition of Vampiric Bite, it's true I can snatch away an extra 15 health every 2 seconds, but it costs me an extra 3 energy...a fair trade...no more powerful than before.
Problem is...this little build of mine (not taking credit, I play my own variation though) has come under fire. I've defended it and offered strategies to beat it for weeks...here again, though is yet another thread crying nerf: the main whining coming from wariors because they stand there swinging away at air never ONCE thinking about using the survival instincts God gave an ant :RUN AWAY!!!!
SERIOUSLY: read through Gladiator and use the search...you'll find all kinds of info and strategy...QUIT whining "nerf it" You folks who can't think around a build piss me off...first my necro gets the nerf-bat, now you wanna do the same to my ranger...the only classes I play with any joy. Can't get into a group to save my life for months when the game started...I paid my freakin' dues and now someone wants to nerf it because lo and behold, what I have been doing for 3/4 of the time I've played (not including beta) is too hard for some brainless tank to counter...try putting some defensive strategy into play, this isn't whack-a-mole!
I respect the opinions of players who are willing to debate and offer insight, but dropping in " yeah make em spells...only solution" is obviously the same dipstick, follow the leader, lemming-like behavior that makes people drive SUVs as commuter cars because they want to BELONG to something...the world has enough yes-men, so please add something unique and thoughtful to the thread or STHU!
JR- You said it...don't suck and you can beat a touchie.
Nine months of playing one and I can tell you what kills em off...energy denial, diversion (not not NOT NOT NOOOOOOTTTTTT...blackout...god I HATE when people don't read the thread and chime in with what has already been mentioned as worthless)....multiple conditions and heavy degen on top of diversion and e-denial will make them drop...stay out of range....cripple and run after a knock-down...kiting help (even dumbass warriors should know when to kite...NOT whine nerf when they are to damned stupid to pull their ass outta the fire)...multiple knockdowns are hard to deal with as well.<please note: dumbass warriors are a classification of warrior...not all warriors...there IS a disticntion>
EVERY build has a counter build, even touchies. I've had my ass dropped unexpectedly and expectedly by every profession...sometimes in combinations ( a mesmer and warrior together = ouchie). A warrior can't get mad if there is a build that can kill them...a tanker should not be the ONLY build that can withstand a beating.
Touch rangers are unique, but limited and run out of energy after one victim or so (even with good gear)...after one member of your party drops, gang up on the touchie...almost always gets me at the end of my mana supply and I have to run (ESCAPE is my prefered...not storm chaser or dodge...obviously mentioned by people who don't play a touchie or play a lame one IMO). Facing more than one? CALL TARGETS and bring res sigs...drop them often enough and the team with the most res wins!!!
Pardon the rant...just play the freakin' game and LEARN to deal with the builds as they come along...remember when you were scared of air-spikers?*mocking trembles* Consider who you attack in the game...the soft targets right? As it happens, warriors are soft targets for the touchie...learn to deal with it...tankers are NOT always at the top of the foodchain...they did away with that term...it's called the food web...it's a balance.
I can think of all the times an air-spiker, interrupt ranger or mesmer killed off my necro...I didn't bitch or cry nerf once...I bit my lip, typed "gg" and rethought my build...for all you "nerf" whiners...I suggest you do the same.
RandomEngy
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
P/
06 Jun 2006 at 06:07 - 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zui
For everyone still crying for a nerf(even though I'm quoting someone):
Somthing being overpowered needs to be applicable to everywhere. The only places people seem to have any problem with touch rangers is RA, and ABs. Amazingly, theese have theese PvP areas have the absolute lowest skill level of all PvP areas. Hmm, is this reflective of the build being overpowered, or the players being bad? Well, if we look at mid and upper level PvP, no one has any problems with them, and laugh when they see them. This means that it's reflective of the players. Not overpowered.
RA is fundamentally different from other gametypes because you can't pick your teammates. Everywhere else you can make a team that can deal with touch rangers (boon prot, snares, whatever), but in RA you just kind of have to guess. It's certainly not ideal for everyone to bring anti-toucher all the time because it does limit your build. For instance when playing as a toucher I have yet to meet a warrior who could beat me. Many used knockdowns and snares. But without monk support, they still died. Does this mean we should all stop running warriors in RA, because warriors don't counter them in any way? Boon Prots are great against everything... but obviously it's not ideal for everyone to bring them. Again it all comes down to not being able to construct a team.
Quote:
No one would look down upon Random Arena if it had compitent players that played to win. The same goes for ABs, but it's compitent teams now, which should be much easier to assemble. The same even goes for HA to a lesser extent. People are looking down upon theese forms of PvP because of the players, not because the forms of PvP are essentialy bad(ok.. HA is both).
Probably. But it has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
Quote:
You can beat touch rangers using pure tactics alone. Useful skills that are essentialy "must have" for any team in any situation aid in this, they also aid versus any single other team there is, meaning there's no balance issue with people bringing them. RA is individual builds, not team builds, you can't have a single charactar be balanced. If you're talking about "fun RA builds" you mean builds built to own scrubs or to use some lame gimmick(such as grenths balance me/n 'spike') that only works against scrubs, using theese types of builds is part of the reason you're loosing.
Again, any type of warrior will lose to a touch ranger, especially one who brings WD. They last longer if they bring heal sig but that's just delaying the inevitable. Maybe you think all warriors are "scrub builds" but really that's not the case.
Quote:
Ok, so you're essentialy useless, and you have 3 rangers chasing you that are also now essentialy useless. Hmm... That's more than a fair trade. Even if it's just one or two rangers, it gives your team an advantage even without a monk. It requires your other team members to be compitent to win, and is that too much to ask? They can kill whoever isin't chasing you since it's either an even match, or they have a distinct numbers advantage. After the rest of their team dies, they can focus on killing a ranger. If you die, it's called a res sig, again expecting compitence. They have speed boosts, you may have no snares, say won't kiting them make them stop for oh say 3/4 of a second every time they use a touch skill, and then make them catch back up to you again? Sounds like a decent trade to me, especaily when it's more than 1 ranger.
Who says they'll be multiple people chasing? If there's already a teammate going after a kiter I just pick someone different. And in a 1 on 1 chase you'll be keeping yourself healed and doing constant damage to the kiter, keeping him out of the battle until he's dead a while later.
Quote:
Well, if you're not running a sub-par build you're likely going to have something that's useful against touch rangers, a hex or condition snare, knockdown, shutdown(inturupts, diversion, blackout...), healing, somthing that causes degen. Anyone without at least one of those in a build is running a bad build, unless of course you can think of one up to par non-gimmick that's lacking one of those.
We covered the warriors already... but let's move on. Anti-warrior/degen necros can do quite well in RA. Siphon, Faintheartedness, Signet of Midnight, Plauge touch is a favorite of mine. And it does quite well in a format where you can't guaruntee condition removal. It can be decent against casters too, if you just pile on the degen. But against touch rangers it falls flat. They heal fast enough to overcome even heavy degen and they ignore Enfeeble, Faintheartedness and basically everything in the curses line. This character, otherwise quite well equipped to handle a battle can't do anything against touch rangers. And someone mentioned Spiteful Spirit as a counter, but it really isn't as long as you keep away from your teammates. It heals for twice the damage each time you Bite or Touch and you're still doing full damage.
Next build... how about a mesmer this time? Distortion, Migrane, Conjure Phantasm, Power Drain, Drain Enchantment, Spirit of Failure, Ether Feast can do quite well. It's quite hardy against Warriors/Rangers/Assassins, had good energy management, can really annoy casters and has decent degen. A fun build, again killed by touch rangers. Even though you're specced Illusion you can't really fit in a good snare without compromosing the build, through slots or energy management.
Same deal for Ineptitude/Clumsiness mesmers.
Blinding Flash eles can disable most physical damage dealers and do good damage to casters, not the case with touchers.
If you're not running AoD on your assassin, you're similarly screwed.
Quote:
Ok, ranger = bow = ranged. Hey ranger being a ranged attacker... Warrior = melee. Say, hamstring+sprint or rush? Maybe even not that, ever think of running somthing like Shock for a snare?
In most cases you can find someone close by to dump the snare on, even if the ranger is far away. Warriors: no, I'm sorry, shock will not help. They'll be on the ground for a bit then get up and touch back to full. If you sprint away you'll be useless to your team... so you start attacking someone else and the touch ranger follows, killing you quickly. And I'm sorry but if you don't bring Plauge Touch as a warrior in RA you're going to be very weak, very crippled and very blind a whole lot.
Quote:
Please name one of theese supposed viable builds that isin't sub-par.
I went over this earlier in the post.
Quote:
Umm, well with the types of players touch rangers actualy beat, they could set up QZ before the match and no one would kill it, and they'd get longer run times with less run skills.
Why are you even talking about QZ? If it's not killed instantly there's a good chance your team will hate you for it.
Quote:
Why nerf somthing that only beats bad players using bad builds? While you're at it, nerf warriors, since they're actualy good against good teams. Seriously, there's no excuse at all anyonefor loosing to a touch ranger. None. Stop whining about them being overpowered and crying for a nerf, and perhaps ask yourself "how can I beat touch rangers?", or perhaps "what did I do wrong?", "what did my team do wrong?", and always "how can what went wrong be improved".
I do know how to beat them. The problem isn't that I can't beat them, it's that doing so makes the game far less interesting. This is indicative of an unbalance, something if removed will make the game more fun. This is the case with every skill that was ever nerfed. You can always list counters for it, but that doesn't magically mean the skill is perfectly balanced.
original whopper
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 06:38 - 100
I've played as a touch ranger
I've been killed by touch rangers
and have killed plenty touch rangers
true there have been more TR's in RA which is why i've been playing cripshot
I feel they are pretty balanced as they have to touch, and If u use one of the many counters listed throughout this thread they can be rendard useless. They are just one of the many FOTM builds that flood random arena ever so often. If u can't hit a prot boon, take non aviodable attacks, if u keep getting knocked down take balanced stance, if u are continuosly hit with conditions, take pure condtions, etc.. A key factor of guild wars is learning and adapting to builds.
Frankly I think its a creative build that simply uses high expertise to lower energy cost of skills, which follows the ways of thumpers, r/a's and i supose trappers. Slaming on this build would be the same as slaming on those listed above and Mes/eles with fast casting (insert element).
nerfing Expertise is not a vialbe solution and will unbalance the game limiting uses of rangers. If there were a nerf, a simple 1-2 second added recharge time would suffice, or we would see a change to sacrifce touches.
just my 2 cents.
Nightwish
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jul 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 07:09 - 101
Agreed with above, regarding touching range. Its not like touch rangers can spam those vamp skills from afar and kill you without moving much.
If there is anything wrong in this whole mess is the introduction of a second vampire bite skill. Now that does tell us something, doesnt it? Which is Anet's support for touch rangers
Evilsod
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
England
Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
06 Jun 2006 at 10:47 - 102
I think if anything people are purely whining because Necromancers got a duplicate Vampiric Touch added for no reason. The moment they remove 1 of them, they have to go back to... Vamp Gaze? I dunno, but i can hardly see it working anywhere near as well without 2 Vampiric Touchs.
Shendaar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 11:22 - 103
The second Vamp Touch is what turned them into overpowered for me. Before Factions was out I could see alot of Touchers using Vamp Touch and Touch Of Agony and I didn't have any problem with them. The damage they did wasn't that much lower, but they had alot less of healing power.
It would be easy for me to come up with a build to defeat them, but I dont feel I should need to do so in other to stand a chance in RA. I have seen alot of different variation of the touch ranger build and the good ones with OoB and Plague Touch can easily maintain an almost infinite reserve of energy unless seriously drained and can easily bounce back any conditions at is used against them(not like any of them has any effect on them except for Crippling). They are practically immune to all the necromancer hexes, except for maybe SS, even that isn't so great. All the conventional Melee killer hex will have no effect on them since they are not considered as "attacking" and same for the caster killer hexes and interrupts, because they are not casting either. To kill them you need Snare(hex based one, because the condition is very likely to bounce back on one of your teamate within seconds.) and a whole lot of degen or ranged damage to kill them before they can start running. Diversion is probably the single best skill against them, but you can't always count on having a mesmer with that specific skill everytime.
JR
Re:tired
Join Date: Nov 2005
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 11:32 - 104
The second Vamp Touch was what turned them from something compeltely ridiculous, into something only mostly ridiculous.
Demesis
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 13:09 - 105
Has anyone read a single thing I posted on this thread???
I just gave you guys a very basic build on how to counter a touch ranger, and you guys simply went on "nerf touch rangers", "touch rangers are not overpowered", "yes they are" and all that rubbish.
Stop being so lazy and use the build I provided or go figure out a build to counter it instead of asking it to be nerfed.
Inferno149870
Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2005
Mors Mortis Draconis [MMD]
R/Me
06 Jun 2006 at 13:16 - 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nohooiam
i've been screaming about a nerf to touch rangers since day one.
G G G G G G G G G G Unit.
wanting to nerf something means you just suck to much to figure out a way to beat it.
beside, nerfing those skills would be disasterous to either class. in any build but a touch ranger those skills are at hte right place of even underpowered... if Anet nerfs touch rangers i won't be happy...
don't whine please, go learn a way to beat it, don't make anet do it for you. no one who crys for nerf could ever be considered a good gw player.
lol, anet supporting touch rangers... they are the anti-iway :P
fb2000
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 13:20 - 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurow
I think that a warrior shouldnt have to have skills expressly for dealing with touch rangers. Yes you can just run away, but while a warrior is running, all it can do is use shouts, so the TR pretty much shuts it down. Yes its true that every build has its counters, but the TR is good against most things, and doesnt have common and clear counters. That is why they need to be nerfed. Sure you can make builds that can beat them, but are these builds comperably good as other builds?
i dont see why everyone says Touchers own warriors oO true, if they are like 3-4 and its a lone warrior they do, but that is true of any char build.. yet ive seen a monk tank 4 of them on her own ^^
if u have a monk for backup, just let them use up their energy on u, easy pickings afterwards.. knockdown works wonders too
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
The second Vamp Touch was what turned them from something compeltely ridiculous, into something only mostly ridiculous.
lol! ^_^
Ecklipze
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Feb 2006
R/
06 Jun 2006 at 13:23 - 108
I am unsure wheter this has been mentioned in this thread already, but if it has, i'll repeat it anyway. If Anet are to 'nerf' the touch ranger, I think the best way to do so, would be to change these touch skills into spells. That way they would not be as easy to spam as they would not be reduced by expertise.
lyra_song
Hell's Protector
Join Date: Oct 2005
R/Mo
06 Jun 2006 at 14:19 - 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecklipze
I am unsure wheter this has been mentioned in this thread already, but if it has, i'll repeat it anyway. If Anet are to 'nerf' the touch ranger, I think the best way to do so, would be to change these touch skills into spells. That way they would not be as easy to spam as they would not be reduced by expertise.
Its been said on this thread (and many more threads), and i dislike that option.
Singling out 1 skill (and its clone) specifically and converting it from skill to spell is a very significant change.
I propose a buff to several skills including Deadly Riposte and Riposte, two skills that already stop Illusionary Weaponry to also stop touch skills.
Vermilion Okeanos
Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 14:24 - 110
Just put an aftercast of 1.75 sec, and touch ranger will be purge from all form of combat.
Dravyn
Academy Page
Join Date: May 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 14:58 - 111
I don't know if they should nerf it, but I'd like to see all of you spouting about counters beat touch rangers on a warrior. And do it more than once, to prove it wasn't a fluke. Somehow I don't think you will. Hell, just stand up to him for more than four seconds, because I seriously doubt you'll beat him. KD Warriors will never live long enough to build up the adrenaline needed to keep the TR down. Shock Warriors will get one knockdown, and may live 3 seconds longer than the rest of the warriors. War/necro's spamming Virulence and plague touch will probably last the longest, but without heal from a dedicated monk, they'll bite the dust too.
The only one here that really gave an insightful argument to the anti-nerf "you're just bad players" spammers is a guy that actually plays Touch Ranger and said himself he's damn near unbeatable. As a warrior myself I can stand a chance against most types, mesmers being the most dangerous, but still beatable if I play well. This isn't the case with Touch Rangers, as they are pretty much unkillable with a warrior. My only option is to run, and as someone else said, its delaying the inevitable, as well as completely taking me out of the fight..as soon as I stop to attack someone else I'm eating dirt.
I understand there are counters, but no warrior primary build is one of them. I dont' know about everyone else, but as a Warrior I find that touch rangers are invincible.
JR
Re:tired
Join Date: Nov 2005
W/
06 Jun 2006 at 15:09 - 112
Were Touch Rangers a problem (which they are not), it is a problem with Rangers not Necromancers. Suggesting changes that effect fairly core game mechanics or have side effects on other classes is just ridiculous.
MasterThrawn
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Feb 2006
Gryffindor
06 Jun 2006 at 15:10 - 113
Whoa! When I posted this it was the first time I came up against a group of Touch Rangers. They were annoying and really hard to kill, but my main complaint was that there were two skills that were essentialy duplictes that could be spammed over and over again - with no delay. I could just see it now - push button 1, push button 2, push button 1, and so on.
The funny thing is these skills aren't that great for a Necro, but oh well. I did not realize this would get into such a debate about people not knowing how to play and whining. One of my favorite chars to play is Ranger, so NO WAY do I think anything should be done to expertise. I think they should be more careful with adding duplicate skills though. That's pretty much all I have to say.
I also ran into a group of 4 Me/Ele's there two, but I won't mention that
nohooiam
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Apr 2005
Forsaken Sanctuary
Mo/Me
06 Jun 2006 at 15:29 - 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno149870
wanting to nerf something means you just suck to much to figure out a way to beat it.
didnt realize people thought i was serious.
i've been using the "G G G G G G G Unit" line to threadcrap on ridiculous threads, but i guess it hasn't caught on yet.
G G G G G G G Unit.
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 15:46 - 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dravyn
<snip>
Any Ranger with apply poison and a snare would give you just as much a headache as a touch ranger. You can't look at it as a one on one confrontation. This is a team game, and many builds will fall against other builds without proper support. To begin with, a touch ranger cannot deal out enough damage that any half-wit monk can't keep up with the healing. Snares render them completely useless, and unable to heal themselves. They have no way of removing hexes (by themselves). And throw dirt, has a long enough recharge time, that you should have plenty of time to dish out damage between dirt tossings (even assuming your monk doesn't have some sort of condition removal). And a Touch ranger cannot keep up a sustained attack without depending on offering of blood... and if they have to use that under pressure from degen and other damage, they are done. They are one trick ponies, and easily rendered helpless.
Dravyn
Academy Page
Join Date: May 2006
06 Jun 2006 at 15:58 - 116
No, with plague touch and any nearby enemy a regular ranger isn't near as much trouble as a Touch Ranger. Regular Ranger attacks are *counterable* whereas touch spamming is not, at least as far as warriors are concerned. TR doesn't need a sustained attack when they can easily down a warrior in 3 seconds that isn't getting spamhealed by a monk. However, I will add that after I posted earlier I was able to kill a touch ranger with a War/N sever/gash Virulence build because it became a plague touch fight after that. I still died, but so did he. My teammates weren't all that happy with my spreading poison about, but hey, I was able to beat a touch ranger...
As far Touch Rangers being "easily rendered helpless" I'd have to disagree. Warriors are "easily rendered helpless". Conditions don't mean jack to a TR as long as he's got plague touch, which he will most assuredly have since he only needs two slots for spammable attacks. Basically, nobody can dish the pain that touchers can and only use two slots to do it. The remaining six slots can be built to whatever they desire, defense, that leaves them virtually untouchable by melee. What a lot of you fail to realise is its that limited dependancy on abilities for damage that makes them overpowered.
Although, I will agree, without proper support Warriors fall to just too many builds imo. There are far too many ways to render a warrior useless. But that's a different rant.
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
06 Jun 2006 at 16:56 - 117
^ Plauge touch only works if you can catch someone, or they're not kiting properly. So snaring a TR or Warrior alike makes plauge touch unreliable.
RandomEngy
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
P/
06 Jun 2006 at 17:45 - 118
I'll say the fix again. Change Touch and Bite to recharge in 4 seconds instead of 2. You don't need to rewrite the rules of the game. It's also a bit simpler than the "stop playing warriors in RA" mantra that seems so popular here.
Side note: why was this topic moved to the PvE builds forum?
War Garrett
Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: May 2006
R/
06 Jun 2006 at 18:26 - 119
I'm not for nor against the Touch Ranger [TR].
It's easy to counter this build. There are many ways...
I now play a build designed to beat TR's, consisting of Cripple and Interuption, as well as a few conditions, in Random Arenas. It's not my prefered way of playing but I have fun and whats more important, I defeat TR's!
Yanman.be
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2005
Belgium
[ROSE]
A/
06 Jun 2006 at 18:31 - 120
Go play a touch ranger, then consider your questions again.
Monk + Toucher = eek) 
