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Originally Posted by Zui
For everyone still crying for a nerf(even though I'm quoting someone):
Somthing being overpowered needs to be applicable to everywhere. The only places people seem to have any problem with touch rangers is RA, and ABs. Amazingly, theese have theese PvP areas have the absolute lowest skill level of all PvP areas. Hmm, is this reflective of the build being overpowered, or the players being bad? Well, if we look at mid and upper level PvP, no one has any problems with them, and laugh when they see them. This means that it's reflective of the players. Not overpowered.
RA is fundamentally different from other gametypes because you can't pick your teammates. Everywhere else you can make a team that can deal with touch rangers (boon prot, snares, whatever), but in RA you just kind of have to guess. It's certainly not ideal for everyone to bring anti-toucher all the time because it does limit your build. For instance when playing as a toucher I have yet to meet a warrior who could beat me. Many used knockdowns and snares. But without monk support, they still died. Does this mean we should all stop running warriors in RA, because warriors don't counter them in any way? Boon Prots are great against everything... but obviously it's not ideal for everyone to bring them. Again it all comes down to not being able to construct a team.
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No one would look down upon Random Arena if it had compitent players that played to win. The same goes for ABs, but it's compitent teams now, which should be much easier to assemble. The same even goes for HA to a lesser extent. People are looking down upon theese forms of PvP because of the players, not because the forms of PvP are essentialy bad(ok.. HA is both).
Probably. But it has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
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You can beat touch rangers using pure tactics alone. Useful skills that are essentialy "must have" for any team in any situation aid in this, they also aid versus any single other team there is, meaning there's no balance issue with people bringing them. RA is individual builds, not team builds, you can't have a single charactar be balanced. If you're talking about "fun RA builds" you mean builds built to own scrubs or to use some lame gimmick(such as grenths balance me/n 'spike') that only works against scrubs, using theese types of builds is part of the reason you're loosing.
Again, any type of warrior will lose to a touch ranger, especially one who brings WD. They last longer if they bring heal sig but that's just delaying the inevitable. Maybe you think all warriors are "scrub builds" but really that's not the case.
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Ok, so you're essentialy useless, and you have 3 rangers chasing you that are also now essentialy useless. Hmm... That's more than a fair trade. Even if it's just one or two rangers, it gives your team an advantage even without a monk. It requires your other team members to be compitent to win, and is that too much to ask? They can kill whoever isin't chasing you since it's either an even match, or they have a distinct numbers advantage. After the rest of their team dies, they can focus on killing a ranger. If you die, it's called a res sig, again expecting compitence. They have speed boosts, you may have no snares, say won't kiting them make them stop for oh say 3/4 of a second every time they use a touch skill, and then make them catch back up to you again? Sounds like a decent trade to me, especaily when it's more than 1 ranger.
Who says they'll be multiple people chasing? If there's already a teammate going after a kiter I just pick someone different. And in a 1 on 1 chase you'll be keeping yourself healed and doing constant damage to the kiter, keeping him out of the battle until he's dead a while later.
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Well, if you're not running a sub-par build you're likely going to have something that's useful against touch rangers, a hex or condition snare, knockdown, shutdown(inturupts, diversion, blackout...), healing, somthing that causes degen. Anyone without at least one of those in a build is running a bad build, unless of course you can think of one up to par non-gimmick that's lacking one of those.
We covered the warriors already... but let's move on. Anti-warrior/degen necros can do quite well in RA. Siphon, Faintheartedness, Signet of Midnight, Plauge touch is a favorite of mine. And it does quite well in a format where you can't guaruntee condition removal. It can be decent against casters too, if you just pile on the degen. But against touch rangers it falls flat. They heal fast enough to overcome even heavy degen and they ignore Enfeeble, Faintheartedness and basically everything in the curses line. This character, otherwise quite well equipped to handle a battle can't do anything against touch rangers. And someone mentioned Spiteful Spirit as a counter, but it really isn't as long as you keep away from your teammates. It heals for twice the damage each time you Bite or Touch and you're still doing full damage.
Next build... how about a mesmer this time? Distortion, Migrane, Conjure Phantasm, Power Drain, Drain Enchantment, Spirit of Failure, Ether Feast can do quite well. It's quite hardy against Warriors/Rangers/Assassins, had good energy management, can really annoy casters and has decent degen. A fun build, again killed by touch rangers. Even though you're specced Illusion you can't really fit in a good snare without compromosing the build, through slots or energy management.
Same deal for Ineptitude/Clumsiness mesmers.
Blinding Flash eles can disable most physical damage dealers and do good damage to casters, not the case with touchers.
If you're not running AoD on your assassin, you're similarly screwed.
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Ok, ranger = bow = ranged. Hey ranger being a ranged attacker... Warrior = melee. Say, hamstring+sprint or rush? Maybe even not that, ever think of running somthing like Shock for a snare?
In most cases you can find someone close by to dump the snare on, even if the ranger is far away. Warriors: no, I'm sorry, shock will not help. They'll be on the ground for a bit then get up and touch back to full. If you sprint away you'll be useless to your team... so you start attacking someone else and the touch ranger follows, killing you quickly. And I'm sorry but if you don't bring Plauge Touch as a warrior in RA you're going to be very weak, very crippled and very blind a whole lot.
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Please name one of theese supposed viable builds that isin't sub-par.
I went over this earlier in the post.
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Umm, well with the types of players touch rangers actualy beat, they could set up QZ before the match and no one would kill it, and they'd get longer run times with less run skills.
Why are you even talking about QZ? If it's not killed instantly there's a good chance your team will hate you for it.
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Why nerf somthing that only beats bad players using bad builds? While you're at it, nerf warriors, since they're actualy good against good teams. Seriously, there's no excuse at all anyonefor loosing to a touch ranger. None. Stop whining about them being overpowered and crying for a nerf, and perhaps ask yourself "how can I beat touch rangers?", or perhaps "what did I do wrong?", "what did my team do wrong?", and always "how can what went wrong be improved".
I do know how to beat them. The problem isn't that I can't beat them, it's that doing so makes the game far less interesting. This is indicative of an unbalance, something if removed will make the game more fun. This is the case with every skill that was ever nerfed. You can always list counters for it, but that doesn't magically mean the skill is perfectly balanced. | | | |
Monk + Toucher = eek) 
