(Rant warning) F the bandwagon monks.

You... are aware of who you just replied to, right? Ensign has been a member of the Guild Wars community for as long as I can remember, and has always been neck-deep in the maths and reason behind balance and strategy. He knows much more about the game than you or I do - drop the attitude and listen to him.

First, speak for yourself. Second, I am listening to him, I just happen to disagree.

I played my monk through all missions in 5 days, switched to 55 monk in between did about 10% of the mission by myself and the other 70% with henches and then for those with humans it took me more then one attempt.

Now I switched to 55 mmonk in 4 days I found roughly 25 items identified for pvp and bought 30 new skills with skillpoints. This is just awesome having so much nw stuff I can test in pvp now.

This game is about skills and if u find skills to trick the system, to bad. Somehow I see everytime they're is a good build everyone wants to nerf it.

I think we simply have a case of See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, from all those who are/support 105/55.

You don't see the problems, you won't hear about the problems, and you won't speak of the problems... last I checked alot of things came to a quick end in this manner.

As Ensign pointed out, in PvP invicimonk is a slightly different build but without NR or suicidal Strip, all those extra enchants will simply make removing Prot Bond nearly impossible, also from what I have seen shatter's damage is also reduced... so guess what two pops and they aren't dead. If NR goes, as many want it too, and nothing is done about Prot Bond, you will have supermonks everywhere and everyone will be crying about how unfair it is that invicimonks rule.
Healing seed is powerful, but I would not classify it as being as bad as Prot Bond, though I will admit it gives near invulnerability to the target with almost not delay due to recharge. This one can easily be fixed with a longer cooldown. Atleast that i my opinion on Healing Seed.

My apologize, I misread the the post I thought you were refering more directly as it being a bore and not that you actually enjoy it. Again my apologize for misreading.

Incorrect. Its not about monks being able to solo at all, I play a monk, and I don't care to see ALL ability to solo anywhere removed from the class. Its about the fact that protbond is a broken, exploited skill, and its also about the fact that monks are the only class who can solo smite runs. So yea, it is about UW because if it werent about UW why does greneth's statue practically crawl with "monkroaches" (as i've taken to calling them) every time we are within 1 win of having favor?? Don't try to tell me that all those monks are salivating to get into UW to solo for fun, Trust me, soloing the smite run gets old as anything else does. Its the financial gain/effort applied equation that draws the "monkroaches". Otherwise they wouldnt be there, hell, otherwise i'd wager 80% of 'em wouldn't even be monks.

Yep, but some people dont need to "trick the system" to be successful... besides if you can't understand the difference between a good build, and the blatant abuse of a broken skill, then clearly I've no need to respond to you any further than this.

Again, another question I've already addressed. I certainly do not lose credability by saying that I've soloed a few times. I had experimented with it when bored and had a pretty crappy, but workable, solo build for UW, then the 105 goes all public and since I had the things on hand to make it I did to see how much easier it was to work than the one I had made. I soloed a few times for some quick cash when I needed it, but I certainly am not currently maxed out on money, and I could really care less if the UW soloing was canned because its not like money is all that hard to come by in this game. So again, It has nothing to do with trying to prevent anyone else from making money, its about the fact that the skill is broken and exploited to hell and back and needs to be fixed. I know it tears you up that you might have to find a new cashcow, But I cant care about that.

Hm, so people taking a mere 2 damage per hit from level ~30 monsters doesn't seem wrong to you?

That's right. Everyone who would criticise protective bond is either jealous or out to wreck the game for everyone else.

For some odd reason, people who only care about getting rich always assume that's what everyone else cares about too. I've played GW since release, and I've never farmed once, nor will I ever. I have all the resources needed to make my own 55 monk if I wanted, and then some, but I don't intend to spend my spare time preparing to have fun, which is what farming is really all about. You play through the same area hundreds of times, with the same skills, collecting the same loot, to afford what you want. Grind in a bottle.

Ideally A.Net would wake up and make it more profitable for players to play (or "farm", if you must call it that) in groups rather than by themselves. That, more than anything, is what is needed here. Then we could talk about all sorts of nice things, like raising the drop rates to an acceptable level so that you'd actually get the items you desire through normal gameplay, rather than grinding through the same area over and over again to be able to afford them from the trader.

Imagine that - getting the items you want without having to farm for them! Oh my, what a glorious world that would be. I suspect most farmers aren't even aware that this is actually a viable alternative. Most players have just been spoonfed with games that support the need to farm for so long that they resist a departure from that mindset on instinct.


ManaCraft

--> XP/skill points

XP and skill points aren't items.


ManaCraft

Point is, if the 55/105 build is so evil and an "exploit", why the heck would Anet wait this long? They could've simply changed the Protective Bond spell (so it can't consume just 1 energy) and voila - the build just lost most of it's power.

It comes odd to me that Anet insist on keeping the build for some time until everyone is using it (strange that people want to farm solo with the drops nowadays) and then nerf it afterwards.

And Manacraft, "getting the items without having to farm for them" isn't just about getting items. It's about farming.
I suspect I'm not the only one who likes the hunt for rare items (not just in this game, but in any multiplayer hack n slash/rpg), just cause it's FUN. More fun for me then playing every mission over and over again (something Anet probably wants everyone to do... at least they couldve build a random lvl generator).

I played this game for less then two months and already grow tired of it. What is there to play for after you finished the game with 2 different builds? Even if item farming WAS supported by Anet, what would we farm for? An extra +1% dmg mod on that rare Fellblade? A -skill- point?

Anet made the game so 'accessible' (sp?) to everyone they forgot to think outside of the 1-2 month span. A level cap of 20, no power items, a rock/paper/scissors PvP system. What use are adding extra quests when it makes no sense to do them (other then the story, and perhaps meeting a new NPC or something?)..

I don't understand why you would release an online (they even call it MMORPG) game that doesn't support competition (except for the (imho shitty) PvP system).

I know I bought the wrong game, I know the game is largely based upon PvP, but I personally don't find much joy in a seperate PvE/PvP enviroment, especially if the PvP is the way it is. PvE also starts to get boring because of reasons stated.... I really hope the summer update is going to do something crazy with this game (without nerfing everything and making some players extremely rich, others extremely broke) that will make it enjoyable once more. Hurray to powergaming.

>.> I don't understand why everyone called nerf on game release. If people could still farm Giants/Ettins for massive runes, prices would have stayed cheaper. If people could still farm for zomg rare weapons, which have no advantage over the collector items I use, prices wouldn't have skyrocketed. Wealth in GW is completely meaningless, so why people complained is beyond me.

The idea put forth:

"An enchantment is overpowered if the only answer to its perpetual presence is removing it."

What you (and others) are saying:

"But you can remove it. Therefore it's not overpowered."

Your response does not follow.

If you're going to argue, I suggest arguing that there are *non-removal* ways around prot bond (and backing up that idea with relevant information).

With that being said, I agree that prot bond needs some adjustment, especially given the status of enchantment removal vs. mass enchantments (removal is weak save for NR - once NR is nerfed enchantment stacking will be everywhere without a corresponding buff in enchantment removal). Healing Seed is also ridiculously good (triggering on every bit of damage, triggering on zero damage, healing for alot per hit in an area, stays on for a long time in relation to recharge rate, etc.)

Life Stealing... It isn't considered damage by ANet... I got hit for 6 damage and then 46 life steal by something because of Shadow Strike.. I'm sure Vampiric Gaze/Touch works the same way. 105bane anyone?

Alright, I want a 105 monk. I probably don't have the cash, but I'll get it. I tried to create a soloable character with my Blood Necro, but it really had too many flaws. I'm going to be honest with you: The majority of net people suck, period. So when I picked up the game, I did want to solo a fair bit of it. I want to play PvE, but I want to be able to find the few birds of my feather who are actually intelligent enough to play with. That means it'll take time, and a lot of effort, to find a guild full of reasonable people- which I've done. But it's a small guild, and I also play off-peak times, so I need to be able to solo.

Nerfing isn't meant to "reduce the skill set", although that's what badly executed/badly designed nerf calls do (nerfing something too much so that it sucks).

Understand the following:

1) Skill rebalancing, as suggested by the high-end PvP community, is done to benefit PvP as a whole by making a more diverse set of strategies viable. A more diverse set of viable strategies makes gameplay better.
2) Nerfing is the easiest way to adjust skills, as a nerf has the least effect on existing balance between other skills. Alternatives (like buffing everything else) require more work and may screw up existing balance.
3) The Monk, as a class, will never be phased out of existence, assuming the designers know what they're doing. Healing is designed to be a counter to damage, and monks are the primary and most efficient class to deal out healing. If healing isn't adequate to counter damage, then the entire system falls apart (won't happen if the designers know what they're doing). Thus, Monks will always have a place on a build, either in a PvE PUG or an organized team build.

...you're not going to buy the next expansion if some overpowered skills are nerfed? I'm, um, not sure how to address this...

Good question. I have no idea, and I am thoroughly dissatisfied with that fact.

Feel free to, as long as everyone else isn't forced to do the same in order to gain access to those items.

GW caters to the casual player. That is why you see such a flat power curve, and no "power items".

It's an all too common way of thinking really. Where are my power items? If they aren't there, why am I playing the game? It stems from the flawed premise that the more rare an item is, the more powerful it must be. Rare items are not required to be more powerful, only more unique. In that respect I don't blame you for getting tired of GW, since it fails utterly as far as unique item properties go, despite having the flat power curve to support them.

Actually, that's precisely what they don't call it. Guild wars is, at least according to A.Net, a CORPG (competitive online roleplaying game).


ManaCraft

I started wanting to play a smiting monk almost a year ago. I did play one for a weekend during beta's, but as of release my monk is still only lvl 12 or so. I really liked that 105/55 idea, and it made what I've always wanted to play workable solo, also something I demand of my builds. I even started to alter my toon to take advantage of it.

But then I realized this game is dead. I havn't played her in about a month, and wandering onto this forum once in a while is about all the effort I can manage to put into this game.

If they would give us UAS, I'd immediatly get back into the game. I'm not saying I'd stay forever, that would depend on how many other decent players came back (you do know they've all left, don't you?). But at least the game would stand a chance.

Of course, they will NEVER give us UAS. Hell, it doesn't look like they're doing much of anything to this game anymore. Seen Gaile Grey around lately? Every day it looks more and more like they're all working on some other project.

Yeah, like an expansion maybe ?

Nice, way to say that everyone who hasn't left isn't a decent player. You do realize thats what you've said, dont you? Rest assured, if thats your attitude I for one wont miss you at all if you never come back and never post again. Furthermore, this thread is not another chat about UAS, so take that moan elsewhere. I'm even for UAS and the Seperation of PvE/PvP and I dont care to see more UAS whining on my thread. Particularly after being told I'm not a decent player.

nobody needs to be able to solo UW. I've already addressed this excuse that putting up with other players is so horrible. You dont have to tell me that the majority of net people suck, but how do you buy an online game and expect to spend more time soloing than anything else?? Seriously, save up and wait on Oblivion, then you can solo all you want. That having been said, You dont have to have the 105 to solo as a monk and I'd love to see one 105 "monkroach" soloing anywhere but UW when we've got favor. It doesnt happen because whatever excuses the "monkroaches" want to throw out there, greed is the motivation.

Meh, even if protective bond is nerfed and monks aren't the best at soloing anymore, I bet you that within a week everyone will be building a soloing necro or something. It's only natural for people who have beaten the game to want to try to be the best at something or try something new - if the super monk build is nerfed, someone will just think up another way to do it. If Anet REALLY wanted to put a stop to that kind of thing, they'd release some new content. More to do = less time spent farming and thinking up builds to do it more efficiently. I swear, I never even considered farming until I had already beaten the game twice and it had become a big yawn-fest. JMHO.

I have a 105 monk and I don't usually end up in UW, thank you very much! UW is boring, and I have no reason to sit there. Eternal bows/shields and Storm bows are worthless, and I have no use for ecto anymore. I tossed all the Eternal/Storm crap I found to lvl 3s in Ascalon, and the ecto I found helped a guildie buy the rest of his set.

The 105 build more than compinsated me for the 8k it took to make, but I havn't been in UW for 2 weeks. Now that my guildie is done collecting the rest of his Ecto he couldn't grab when they did the vendor reset, I started playing with griffons for awhile. Today I got bored of griffons so I'm back to a pure healing monk.

Not every 105 build is in it for gold; something so common and worthless can't be the driving force behind it all.

I totally agree with you Elistan
They should seperate RPG and PVP, that way rpg characters can enjoy pvp more, and pvp characters can't bother RPG characters all the time.
MMORPGs are to play with others and always are replayable, since every time you play it again, the things go different, the sensation is different, and the people are different.
I don't get why people don't see that.

Before I've started Guild Wars, I've been playing Ragnarok Online for about 5 years (yea, that long) everytime I had to re-make my character because of wipes and what not, I didn't mind. It's just a fresh start. A new experience.

(what's UAS?)

Simply put, if they start zealously swinging the nerf bat, people leave the game. Fewer people, less challenge and less reason to stay. Right now people are leaving in droves because they have already done everything and tired of waiting for something new. They are off playing any number of games which are currently in competition and say they will come back for an expansion. Typical of this, many will wait for 'reviews' from their guildmates. The mere mention of the word 'nerf' will mostly serve to keep them gone and encourage more to go to freshly un-nerfed games. Nerfing tends to kill a game, period. This game was so long in development, hard to believe most things not ornamental aren't working as intended, including spirit walls that allow their own team to pass right thru but not opponents.

I want to see these hoardes of people that are leaving, from what I have seen the number of GW players is anything but dropping. (maybe my source is wrong)

If the only reason you are in a game is for items and to be god, and you have some odd fear of the nerf bat because you are unable to evolve... then you have some issues.

PS: What was the point of beating on the game? Of saying how much it sucked... how it lacks in comparison to other games. Do you have some immense hate for this game? Or are you just scared your gold mine might run dry?

Anyone with the forum handle "Endowed Johnson" should not be taken seriously.

And energy drain overpowers most of those. Which is why you'll find most monks running energy drain as their elite, unless there's some other elite that's essential to the build (and even then, it's most likely gonna be run on a /mo secondary). Let's see, you can choose some other form of energy management, or you can choose e-drain which is excellent energy management and also ruins the enemy's energy management. When the attack brutally out-performs the counter, then it's not much of a counter now, is it?

Like I mentioned previously, there are ways to circumvent the prot bond. High-frequency low damage attacks, energy denial and target switching will do it. Admittedly at reduced efficiency, but that's what you have to work with if you don't have enchantment removal at your disposal. And that's a big "if," since right now NR runs wild, and if it weren't for NR, it'd be rend or lingering curse.
And really, prot bond isn't the only skill that only has one efficient way of countering it. There are several powerful hexes whose only reliable counter is hex removal. Even mass DoT conditions ala poison/disease will win the energy battle and eventually the game unless the enemy is carrying martyr. You can hit close to 160DPS with those, and nothing short of martyr is going to save you. None of these are quite as powerful as prot bond, but they are game winners nonetheless, if you don't have the proper counter.

What exactly is the problem with certain buffs needing to be removed? Enchantment removal counters a huge chunk of those 450 total skills, and every build will have enchant removal. Perhaps you didn't envision the game having only one type of counter for one skill, but that isn't grounds for calling it "broken," certainly not with such an authoritative tone.

If this is an argument for nerfing prot bond in PvE, it's a weak one.

What you're suggesting is nerfing solo monks so as to encourage team play? Let's see, most of the times when I'd want to do a mission, I'd join up with friends/guildies with a normal pve build (since 105 monks don't work in team games). I'd never want to join PuGs. If no friends/guildies are online, I'd just grab my solo monk and farm exp, and I'm sure a lot of people are in the same situation. I don't tell a friend, "go screw yourself, I'd rather farm with my monk."

Nerfing prot bond won't encourage me to PuG more, it'd just piss me off because I'd have to grind that much more for the last few skill points I need. I'd just log off and log back on when more people I know are online. Now maybe if you're sitting in ToA all day and yelling "LFG LFG LFG", nerfing prot bond might help you get a group more easily, but in most cases it wouldn't help a bit. There will always be enough people going through pve with a new char, willing to partner up and do a mission.

A better, more thought out suggestion to improve PvE would have been to increase mission/quest rewards and encourage questing, as opposed to nerfing farming and forcing a few pissed-off farmers into questing with the rest of the crowd.

Ad Hominum


Ad Nauseumque infinitum
P.S.Non Sequitur

Logically bereft and impoverished attacks. Your weapons are not to blame, perhaps it is your intelligence attribute that does not meet the requirements to properly wield. Re-spec.

I can't do 105 or 55 since everyone needs my monk for oh, y'know, real monking and helping out.

A couple of my friends have 55/105 monks, and when people need a mission they're like "Uhhh...are there mesmers in it?" YES THERE ARE MESMERS IN IT... "Uhh..."

So they go in, they can't heal any of us, of course, but heck they can tank everything but the mesmers (and necros, sometimes). Oh they can't tank anything with knockdown, either, or DOT, poison, disease, bleeding. Otherwise, they die. Really fast, and get DP, and bug, and you can't res them, because their hp is 1.

So, then what? You gimped your monk to the point where you can no longer be useful, but hell you got ectoplasms up the hizass. Want a f*cking cookie?

-edit-

Oh, oh right one more note: If PvE in GW is supposed to reflect trends in PvP, god damnit we need nature's renewal spam in UW, but this has been said and repeated so many times it's deader than dead.

See anyone running Prot bond in HoH? I don't bloody think so.

There is Nature's Renewal in UW. >.> Why else do you think monks are limited to the small area of smites.

As people have stated, I solo only when we dont have enough people to GvG or do UW clearing runs. I never PUG, not for Missions, Runs, Arena or HoH, because I KNOW that 9/10 times with a pug, some moron will screw it up and cost use time and money, if its UW/FoW.

Last 4 groups I went in to go to FoW/UW claimed they were "pro" at this, yet they managed to die before even finishing a single quest. I do better on my monk solo, says something about people playing.

Those looking for a good competitive game can only look at a balanced playing environment favorably.

Also remember that unlike some MMORPGs people don't exactly pour their lives away on a character with a limited skillset in Guild Wars. A skill nerfed to uselessness leaves most people saying "Alright, don't want to use that one anymore - but this other skill can do well on the skillbar" rather than "I invested a few thousand hours into this character with this broken skill that got nerfed, this character is not worth playing anymore". The latter makes people leave, the former...doesn't, really.

This is simply untrue. You must be getting your premises from experiences with other online games (MMORPGs) where there are certain attributes to characters made in those games (see above reasoning).

i was way to lazy to read through all 120+ posts here so im just gona post my opinion, the 105/55 monk is fair, unless used in the low lvl arenas, the monks are so heavily relied on thats its a way for them to not be relied on at all, they can go out and do whatever with little fear of dying because the monk was overworked.

So? The purpose of fixing prot bond is not to make you PUG more often. I don't care whether you PUG or not, I care whether you are met with sufficient challenge when you play the game.

"PUGs suck" is a poor excuse for wanting to preserve an imbalanced skill.

Agreed, but the reason people advocate a fix for prot bond isn't because it's being used as a farming tool, but because it removes all difficulty from the game. As far as I'm concerned you can farm all you want.

And yes, the quality of drops needs to go up, up, up!


ManaCraft

Get on topic, the conversation is STILL not about pvp and spirit spam. The conversation is about the fact that monks are unbalanced, and currently being exploited. Thanks.

Why do you think I care if you pug or not? It has nothing at all to do with who you group or don't group with. The fact that you cant handle dealing with other players is no reason to leave a broken, flawed, unbalanced and exploited skill buggered as it currently is. And really, please dont cry about so called "grind" in this game. It only shows that you don't know what actual grind is.

Because it's not an exploit at all, of course... it's simply a very creative build with a number of things (including, but not limited to, protective bond) all working together in tandem, highly effective in certain limited areas of the game - and virtually useless in most others.

Unfortunately, when such builds turn up in online games, which could - gasp! - allow that player to gain some fake wealth faster than others, people will scream about it until it is changed.

If this build is changed, smart players will come up with a variation of it that still works (perhaps not in UW, but in probably every other area that the current one works) and people will still complain - or they'll complain about the warrior one - or the ele - or so on.

All avoiding the actual problem, which is that there should be better rewards when playing in a full group, and there should be a better system of putting together groups at outposts.

Even when people can't solo the UW, they always try to come up with ways to do it with as few people as possible - that's why you have things like trapping groups. Trapping groups take longer, but are more worthwhile in terms of rewards. Soloing also takes longer and can be mind-numbingly boring, yet so many still do it.

Enough with the nerf talk - let's make it more worthwhile to group, and then you will have a lot less people who want to solo. But again... this point is continually missed in these "discussions" (which come off more like senseless hatred of people using a certain build).

Why? Why do you care that I get sufficient challenge when I play? How does it affect you? If I want to remove all of the challenge from the game for myself (and nobody else), why shouldn't I be allowed to? I can understand an arguement against the 105/55 build based its affect on the economy, but this arguement seems ridiculous to me.

What economy?

Good point.

exploited? that is BS

the freaking aataxe must have like level 20 sword skill and arent they like level 28/29 monsters? they hit me for like 200-250 dmg with no spells on.. omfg hax the monsters can be over level 20.. anet nerf them please or i will cry boohohohooohoohoo

can you imagine if anet nerfed the 105ers how many will flood the forums complaining? anet coded prot bond to be 1 mana so it was an intended feature. they will not nerf it so get over it.

if you think farming the uw is the best place in the game to farm, you suck at farming

i run a build with my mo/me using no healing or protection spells that solos griffons just as fast as a w/mo and can kill the warrior and monk bosses every time. i take more than 2 damage but i almost never die.. so can you call that an invincimonk too? lets just nerf every damn monk spell and reduce warrior armor to 60AL so nobody can solo anywhere. make every ranger monster past yaks bend drop a nr first thing so we are prepared for high end pvp and 1/3 of all spells are rendered useless.

they claim that in the coming soon update there will be new opportunities to get loot faster. 8x gold drops for 8 ppl groups sounds like one good idea to encourage grouping. 150gp piles split 8 ways at the very end of the game is just crappy.

for all that you people whine, you don't offer any suggestions to improve things

remove the skill? umm

how would you change prot bond and still have it be a useful skill? if we nerf nr how should healing seed be changed? its like you broke your foot but you wont do anything to fix it, just lay on the ground crying. im sure any anet employee wouldnt even open up this thread with your stupid title.. just continue to blow hot air nobody cares

if this was my forum, i would make a rants section and ban complainers. gtfo of my community section

Kinda sad, I can make more money clearing the FIRST ROOM of cows and squids, than I can by clearing 80% of UW. Wow.. I get piles of 100 gold split 8 ways, whoop-de-doo, im rich now!

Item drops for groups should be like 10-15x time shigher then, to actually encourage "teamwork in a game based on it". Personally, anywhere except HoH/GvG I prefer to go solo >.>

Quoted for truth.

The most pressing issue of PvE GW is the issue of group drop rates. ANET really, really needs to come up with a system that *rewards* grouping rather than *punishes* it. Until a more equitable system is in place, I (and any players like me) will continue to find the quickest road to maximum profits. And the grouping reward had better be enough to force me to endure standing around the ToA forever waiting to finish up a PUG.

Seriously, if you're still grouping for anything but quest xp in FoW or UW, then I feel sorry for you.

Please ANET, give me a reason to group with human beings.

cmb