Poll on the 10/10 and 10/11 Update

I can't see them rolling it back either. All it did was make the enemies smarter. What if it was like that from the begining? Then what?

People are using AoEs, and the smart ones aren't having that many problems with them.

Chev, that's tooo funny!

Quoted for truth.

I don't like this patch much either. I've spent many hours creating an echo nuker based on the way aoe spells worked before. Now, that toon is nowhere as effective and I would not have created such a specialized toon given the knowledge of the change.

I'm sure I'm not alone in creating builds based on expeirence of how spells work. Then jsut to have that build be 'nerfed' really ticks me off. Now I'll have to re-examine the skills and see if I need to create a toon / build. Or I can just not play the game anymore :/

Maybe it's just me, but isn't part of the fun of this game with 500+ skills supposed to be the challenge of putting skills together to create great combos? Where's the fun in cookie-cutter builds? An Echo nuker uses 2 skills, maybe 3... hardly a good use of the toolbar!

Guess I'm in the minority... I spend hours tweaking my characters...

I personally like the new update. In the past, you get the monsters grouped for your ele and hope you kill them faster than they all turn on your monk. This was a bit "versus computer" ish to me. Now, they react a bit more like us. The monsters "call a target", someone casts aoe on them, this breaks them up by making them move, heal and re-evaluate a target.

I like that anet is working on bridging the gap between pve and pvp. Some times I feel like every town should have a set of railroad tracks and you pick your side: pve or pvp?

Plus, the new update helps keep things a bit more like anets original statement of (not exact quote here) "we want to make this a fun game that you can sit down and play for a little while or a long time."

Today I grabbed some henchies and fought my way from piken to Nolani Academy as a level 7 ele. It was rough. I had 39% dp by the end of it, but before the update, that would not have been possible. I felt like I was actually fighting with the monsters, not just either being anniahlated by them or running by. I used aoe to do some damage and protect the monk.

Last night, my mesmer helped protect the monks by casting chaos storm on enemies that were ganging up on them. This didn't cause them to run around like mad. It just broke them up enough to give the the monks a chance to heal. It was a quick distraction -- just like when we humans are fighting and go "crap, im in a chaos storm. gonna have to move". More realistic if you ask me.

It's also hard for ANet to balance the skills when they're on different ground in PvP and PvE.

If something is used exclusively in PvE, meaning not in PvP because it's not worth it... it's hard to buff it to be viable in PvP without it being overpowered in PvE now.

What this update does, is make those situational spells (AoEs) have a similar (if not the same) effect in PvE as they do in PvP. Are AoEs useless? If it's all you know how to use, then to you, yes.

But believe it or not, this patch will let ANet balance skills more appropriately so that if it's usable in PvP, it can/will be usable in PvE (and vice versa.)

i am thinking that
this patch was pretty good...
AI and NPC Monsters
should have atleast a couple of braincells
to not take all the dmg they can take
they should atleast leave the area of effect that can kill them....
and for other updates this is my opinion too

Looking at the poll data as it is now, the majority of people doesn't even WANT them to roll it back. But while the general idea to make the monsters smarter is a good idea, this patch still has several quirks that need to be fixed. The main problem I still have is the nerfing of tanking. Making the critters lose aggro when hit with AoE causes too much chaos to the game for my taste. Very often, after an AoE spell, the monsters are running all over the place attacking random members of the group. I can't say I like that. Making them step out of area spells, sure - but they should go back attacking their former target after that. Or switch to ranged weaponry - like stepping out of damage area and start casting ranged spells themselves. Also they need to evaluate if it even would be a good idea for them to step out of AoE. Humans sometimes decide to say in and take the damage if they can get an advantage from it, like bringing down their target. A human would step out if their life is in danger. Monsters still run away even if the AoE barely scratched them.

Keep the patch, but work out these quirks, I'd say. Currently, the critters still react dumb to AoE damage, only in a different way. And tanking needs to come back to the game, too. Currently the only halfway reliable way to keep the critters from attacking every squishy in the group is snares, so every group has to run them. We don't want to replace echo nuker boredom with snare mage boredom, don't we?

I dont think everyone needs snares, but speaking from the standpoint of having one charecter in each primary proffession, everyone should get used to bringing one, if not two, defensive/self-healing spells. I hate it when I use my monk and some ... person ... aggros so much that i have to energy dump on them to keep them alive, and then they pull the aggro and the rest of the team suffers. Playing a monk well, you need good energy management - Playing charecters other than a monk, you need to be able to save your own behind.

Ideally each monster type would react differently to each situation. Warrior types switching targets, while ranged types just moving out of the area of danger. Healer types moving away from direct conflict, while possibly moving towards another monster group for help, and the rest of the monster group being tetherd to the healer attemping to protect him and so on. I seriously doubt that will be the case though, at least not for awhile anyway.

A big thumbs up from me. Anything that improves the AI and makes me think is a good thing. I don't want repetitive game play. I want new challenges, I want to be kept on my toes.

Oh and down with farming, any game who's gameplay is week enough for that style of play is in trouble. More of the same plz ANET.

edit** This doesn't make AoE useless. It's great for scattering monsters. A great way to protect a monk that’s being mobbed. A far more realistic use for an AoE if you ask me. Engage your brain and relish new challenges.

Here here. Keep the patch but beef up the AI to get rid of the new problems. After playing this game for so many months, I admit that it has begun to become a bit boring, knowing that I can beat almost any mob with a few tanks, some background healing, and some nuking either from a fire elementalist or chaos storm from a mesmer. Too easy. And it made playing an elementalist as anything else other than fire nuker very questionable.

So it is nice to have it now so that AOE no longer is the answer to every situation. The problem is, currently it seems like AOE is not an answer to any situation excepting one: cast an AOE spell on any teammate that is surrounded by enemy warriors to free them from the enemy mob.

I play with a few friends and fill up parties with henchies, and since the patch I simply don't take the henchy elementalist with me. Rather than trying to combine snaring + AOE, I simply don't use AOE at all. For me, that's ok, the game is more challenging, and it lets me utilize my mesmer and ranger characters more fully.

Certainly the AI can be beefed up more. What about that penalty you are supposed to get when you run away from a melee foe? This could perhaps be beefed up (what about a 3 second knockdown on hit when fleeing?) and maybe the enemy can take this into account when making a decision as to whether to flee an AOE or not. I'm sure many improvements can be made.

I havnt been playing for a few months now but i got one thing to say. WHY THE HELL IS EVERY ONE MOANING (not all but a good mijority) you allways complain about needing somthing more challanging or more harder to fight blah blah but when ANet puts out a update that cranks up the pure diffucluty you srceam "oh no i cant farm" or "nooooooooo my AoE spells dont work" well gese what people YOU HAVE TO ADAPT you need to get the skills that are important for gaming mix them then go and kill KILL KILL!!!!!! I am on the edge of my seat waiting to be able to play GW and and those of you who say "Thanx alot ANet goodbye" ect ect need to grow up and think latteraly

Thats the problem here, and I dont even want player ele's in my group now. If you go without an ele, the only difference to before the patch is that mobs take longer to kill. It's not challenging, they aren't any smarter, they still stand there locked to tanks once they've got agro. How is simply making each fight take longer more fun?

Or, bring an ele for the excitement value of making mobs unpredictably switch targets and possibly get you all killed. Yeah I'm sure most groups will thank you for spicing things up with random party massacres.

hm i think its okey-ish i always liked watching npc helpers and enmies beating teh crp out of each other, kinda bunmmer they fixed the monster thign, ive still got a pic somewhere that i'm dancing in fornt of a bunch of skeletons who where completely unresponsive to my agro buble

Hey, wait a second. There is much more to GW combat, even before the patch, than fire AOE nuking combined with warrior tanking!

Firstly, there is no reason not to go without a HUMAN ele. The human ele should be smart enough to realize what AOE spells do after the patch, and adjust their skills and play accordingly. They can, for example, invest some points in water and slow the enemy before they apply the AOE. Those ice imps do it to me quite effectively!!! They can also put the AOE on the shelf and do other things. I have played air elementalist with my ele for quite some time now, mainly concentrating on weakening and blinding the enemy rather than nuking them. It works fantastic and is a great support to a team.

The only reason why I don't take a henchy ele with me is because at the moment, the henchy ele seems primarilly to use fire AOE spells, and has not been programmed to change their offensive attacks to compensate for the changes of the recent patch. If you find a HUMAN ele who doesn't understand the need for changing skills and strategy a bit, then that human ele isn't much better than the current henchy elementalists, and you probably would be better off without him/her. But in general, elementalists are still great contributors to a team.

Yes, if you consider GW before the recent patch, going without an elementalist, or let us say a fire nuking elementalist, might indeed make each battle last longer. But does that make it any less fun? Consider:

1) the battles are more challenging: what is no fun to me is the repetitiveness of the tank-nuke situation before the patch.

2) now you have the opportunity to replace that one or two or more fire AOE nukers with other interesting classes, or don't you ever play with them? You know, like rangers with their distrupting shots, their traps, their poisoning and blinding. Like Mesmers with their energy surge, shatter hex, spell disrupting, crippling, etc. etc. skills. Like Necros with both their team supportive wells and their enemy damaging curses and other skills.

If you don't believe how interesting this game can be away from a more traditional Warrior:tank/Elementalist:nuke setup, try going out in parties with no warriors at all, or at the most only one. Its actually a lot of fun!

Yes you would think so, similar situation.

the other night i saw, Smiter monk with balths lfg for fow

so i whispered him saying, just to check you know mobs run away from balths now with the update.

him / what update

me / the one today

(bit of blablabla)

him / look ive checked the website and it dosnt mention it STOP WASTING MY TIME AND DONT TALK TO ME.

sigh.....you try and help...

(and this happend several times, you think i would have learnt my lesson and just stopped being helpfull).

I didn't say that was all I went with, only that eles nuking take agro away from the tanks. Tanks are tanks no matter what other classes you group with.

At the moment I'm playing a monk, and it's shocking how little people understand what we're capable of. They run off in different directions, run away from me when they're being chased while I'm trying to heal them, stand there getting hit sponging all my remaining energy, lead mobs to me instead of to the tanks. They have no idea how difficult they make our job. Then they blame us for their stupid mistake. Many ele's wont think about the risk, they'll just take the opportunity to do some damage.

If this has been said before I'm sorry, but I can't look through the 20 previous pages to check at the moment.

I personally don't think that AoE skills are useless now. Think about it, what happens when you use them? The enemies run right? What this means to me, is that now they are more of a defensive tactic than an offensive one. Let's say that you or a teammate are getting close to dying. Cast Symbol or Wrath or some other low energy AoE spell here and the enemy should flee, giving you or your teammate time to recharge. This should also help out Rangers and Warriors use skills like Bull's Strike, Protector's strike and such against fleeing enemies.

So long story short, I think a lot of people are oversimplifying this update into:
old strategy not work as well = no chance of winning anymore

which is sad, but hey, maybe if they all give up and quit, the versatile and strategic among us will have less idiots join up with us in missions.

there is a simple solution to this, maybe making the monsters run after about 7 or so second of AoE not instantly, i was running someone to Beacons recently and happened to be surrounded by ettins, no way out and i died, so i thought ok take Symbol of Wrath (no smiting lvl of course) and got surrounded used sow and they ran INSTANTLY, enlightens you of all the pathetic possibilties doesnt it?

the poll is damn gud!

i dont remeber seeing anyone say there totaly usless just that the effect of AOE is no longer worth the cost.
rough example before update 15 cost AOE dealt 200 total damge to each enemy in area
post update
15 cost AOE does 15 damage and causes enemy to scater for 4 seconds resulting in increase in aggro bigger mob comes in hit with mybe 15 more dmg and scatters again causing yet more aggro after the third or forth scater and regroup of the enemy the aggro has more than doubled and you have delt mybe 30 dmg total to each enemy

please explain how this is still worth the cost of AOE's

and dont forget the effect is still present if your have 0 attributes in said AOE and deal 0 damage, now how is that increased AI ?

After having a quick read here it seems the players who like a constant challenge, like playing with a diverse group and skill make up love this patch.

The players who have found an effective setup and what to keep the status quo hate it.

I fit into the first category. I think the way the mobs scatter is perfect. I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic. Combat is much more fun now, its unpredictable chaotic and keeps you focused. Just how it should be.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean! Hopefully (unless Anet changes things once again) Elementalists and other AOE dealing classes will realize and make some strategy changes. I have a monk character also, and my friends and I have made some changes to reflect the patch. As monk I take Symbol of Wrath as a way to free myself of any melee enemy that surrounds me. Also, my Mesmer friend has become quite good at casting Chaos Storm near any of us that are being swamped by any enemy. With the patch, this of course has the effect of causing the enemy to run away.

Pure and simple I'm ready to quit this game my build is useless everthing in this game sucks now, I cant believe what they did, im ready to quit and move on to something else now, and I've got 3000hr in regular game 1500000XP and I go all the way back to last years First beta and all beta's and free-weekends.

Nothing more to say about it, the statistics speak for itself. With so many hours spent playing the same game, its time to quit and move on to something else.

Or, could it just perhaps possibly be the case that the patch, and the necessary strategy changes that need to be made because of the patch, are just the thing to make this game interesting, challenging, and exciting for you again?

Just a thought.

Then change your build. If you wanna have the same build for ever whats the point of playing. Go work in a factory, you might enjoy it.

1) 3000 hours?! Farking hell! I thought I was a fanatic! Yes, it sounds like maybe you should do something else for a while.
2) 3000 hours... and you want to continue the exact same way? I'd have thought you'd be happy for a change in the gameplay, I sure was and I've only some 500 hours and 900000 EXP. Have you noticed that re-speccing now is free and unlimited? Shift those points around, try some new skills. Maybe even change secondary profession? Take this opportunity to freshen up your game!

All you're saying is that mobs moving out of AoE's is perfect. You're totally ignoring the actual issues here and saying it's more of a challenge without even thinking about how little sense that makes...

No AoE's = mobs being just as dumb as they were before.

AoE's = waste of energy + risk to party

If you're watching them scatter then you or somebody with you is doing something wrong. Thats like saying "hey team, I like taking risks with the party so I'm going to run around luring spawns on to our monks and casters for this one, ok?".

Sure, it's easy to make the game more challenging like that. It's not called smart AI, it's called human stupidity.

I wonder: How many of the people that are complaining that elementalist AOE spells are now essentially worthless have actually tried to combine them with water magic's highly irritating motion slowing spells? Everytime I go out around Shiverpeaks I am either dead meat or completely ticked off by what those ice imps and, in fact, the ice elementalists, are doing to my character. Its really annoying trying to escape AOE damage and, in fact, all other damage when this frozen whatever-it-is hex is on me.

What say? Have any of you complainers tried this? Or is it so important to have max attribute points on fire that you can't spend any of it on water?

Complete agreement.
Especially the "I just hope they build on this and keep making the PvE more intelligent and dynamic" bit. I'd like to see e.g. mobs behaving differently based on type and changing tactic on the fly to match the players tactics.

However, given the reception this AI update got (incidentally, why does everyone ALWAYS think EVERY change to ANYTHING is a "nerf to farming"?) I don't think ANet will be in a hurry to improve AI furtherr. Obviously a very large proportion of players prefer "fish in the barrel" type mobs to mobs which offer anything resembling a challenge*.


* Oh, and guys, you can't simultaneously claim that the mobs have got dumber than they were before AND claim that they're harder to kill now and that you now die too much. Seriously. Those are contradictory statements.

I can see what you’re getting at but to me

Mob that stands getting pounded by AoE = dumb AI

Mob that moves out of AoE = slightly less dumb AI

Drop an AoE in PvP and watch the people move (except the real dumb ones).

What it does is make you think more about how to use them. Either defensively to disburse mobs that have agroed a non tank, or offensively by using tanks/snares etc to pin them down first.

It does change the way they have to be used which is bound to upset some people, and I agree the henches AI needs to be updated to reflect this. However how can't you see this is a huge improvement? Combat was so rinse and repeat before.

If you take your approach and just dump AoE's all together then it still frees up other slots for new combinations, new options. However I see them best used as a defensive tactic to protect the non tanks.

It has made things harder. It does now take better tactics and coordination, but with out these improvements the game was in danger of becoming stagnant. I think it’s a step in the right direction.

I think changes and frequent changes that A-net has been doing lately would help the fanatic 24/7 guild war gamers, as they are probably getting bored with the game, but I think it hurts the casual gamer tremendously. I myself believe I am a casual gamer and what I hate about the whole thing is change. It looks like I am going to have to read and read about updates everyday before I log on and try to keep up with whats what and whats different. I see the fanatic type easily able to adapt to change while the casual gamer has not the time or gold to.

I myself haven't found the game stale and have it found it to include enough challenge already, what I don't want to be doing once a month is rebuilding a build or starting over because now what worked yesterday, doesn't work before. And my greatest fear is one day and one day this will happen, I will spend a fortune in gold and time and will eventually come up with a character and skill selections that kicks butt and be real happy with, all to find it hit head on with A-net's uber bat of nerfing and eternal game changing weapon of mass destruction. They don't want us to solo and basically if a build can, something will change, so to me what's the point of trying anymore. If something else comes up being a great solo build, something will happen and then it won't be. And in fact I only bought the game to see if I could build a great solo character for PVE, I can care less about PVP. If they dont want us to solo something, put a freaking number of party members minimum on it, some other geniuses mentioned this already. IMO, the beta testing should be over, which seems to be the current state of the game.

What I do like though is additions, Guild Wars for a free to play game is number one for additions, with the halloween update, cloak and helmet on and off, the treasure chests and the awesome add-on Sorrow's Furnace. What time that was wasted on the AI, could have been spent on adding quests, areas, or even some kind of auction system or a trader for mods, yes every mod in the game, that would rule, IMO this should be done before anything. Add stuff, please no more changes, at least for awhile, anyway.

Well consider how much stronger mobs are than us. We move from AoE's because they hurt, a lot.

Now look at the new AI and watch mobs flee from an AoE after x amount of seconds just as they're about to kill a player, even if that fire storm only tickles. Toe to toe mobs can take and dish out more damage than us, so why would every one of them run away? This is where I'm missing the 'intelligent' part. They react even dumber in most situations now than they did before.

We can also slow them down so they cant escape the area so fast, and what do they do...walk away slowly getting beaten to death and not even attacking players.

I'm all for AI improvements if it actually makes them smarter, but this doesn't.

Again I can see what you’re saying. However I do believe this does make them smarter. Not much mind you I'll give you that, but they are smarter. The fact that they are harder to kill shows this.

I see the biggest gripe here is the changed behaviour means a complete rethink on player step up and tactics for some people. I think that’s a good thing. It prevents players falling into the rut of using the same tired old tactics over and over again. It requires adjusting to a changing world. Exploring skills over again to see what you can do with them. For me that = fun.

As I said I would love them to build on this over time and keep adding more features to the AI. Eventually they might not be so dumb. That goes for the henchies too. Hate it when the last hench standing rezes you with his final breath just so you can be killed in seconds again and double your death penalty.

Heh I almost missed this post, so many people are boohooing about the AoE damage.

I can confirm this. Last night we had a race to Droknar's with 5 warriors. The first worms stayed with us until the second tunnel before the first troll tunnel in Lornars. The second batch of worms stayed with us about twice the distance prepatch.

I also find it odd, like you, that they claimed to have reduced the amount of time a monster will follow you in the patch message and worms somehow ended up getting extended.

I am not sure about the avicara, but I did notice 2 of them chasing us all the way to the zone as we did the Talus Chute part of the run.

It seems worse if there are MORE people with you.. go figure..

Seems this would be counterproductive to PvE situations as well.. imagine agroing too many worms at once and your monk tries to flee while the rest of you distract the worms.. (not an unlikely scenario as you might think: I've been in that situation.. good ol rebirth...) with this new patch that really isn't a possibility. Those worms will hunt every last one of you down and kill you.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

I don’t like the idea that we have to fight to same type of foes with a different tactic; it makes game stupid. Just like, why the foes did not run away from AoE before, but after the patch, they run away, it makes me feel the “patch” or the developer make them “smarter”, and it is totally unrealism. Also, why they are not responding to melee attacks, if the same concept (responding to pain) applies, they should all run away or try to block melee attack too, same way as they respond to AoE. lol

I think if they want to increase the AI for the foes, why they don’t change the monster type and AI at the same time in the same area, so we don’t need to fight against the same types of foes all the time, which will make the game more real.

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball ).

Why is PvE supposed to be a boring, uninteresting, skill-lacking grind?