Dear Anet: Make Razah's PvE aquisition REASONABLE.........

/signed definately

They should make it as easy as getting all other heroes, just complete 1 single quest, not this quest divided in 4 parts, which you can't even hench.

Yeah, wth, they don't even leave a hole in the ground....

Agree

Multiply that by the number of characters you have, and it adds up. Add in the time you spend trying to get groups if some of those characters are professions that have difficulty being accepted by PUGS, and it adds up even more.

freakedoutfish: This is probably where the question of how rapidly the gems dropped came about - a few pages ago, I asked what the drop rate was, thinking that if it was decent you could possibly take a high-demand profession through multiple runs in order to get Razah for lower-demand characters. Given that, as far as I know, the 'complete DoA' quest can only be done once per character, the drop rate does become important for anyone intending to use one character to subsidise another in this way.

Some people cannot post their opinion and leave it be but have to argue with anyone who do not share their opinion.

I'll just /sign the OP.

"Once you do that quest, THEN any you need to farm the gems in order to exchange for weapons or armor or what-ever else."

Im pretty sure I said that, in perhaps not very clear words.

Its 12 hours to complet DoA now? It was said to be 6 hours before. Where do people get these huge numbers from.

This is why people are thinking DoA is too much work for one Hero, because everyones exagerating how long it'l take to do.

i didn't say to complete DOA i meant for gem farming if someone beat all of DOA in six hours which i don't think is possible GG more like 8ish. 12 hours was between chest running and killing random mobs checking this place out. ATM i have a total of 6 gems just missing the titan which refuse to drop.

Razah is only 4 gems ...

Everyone is missing the point of this thread ... Razah is reasonable to get.

I think you're missing the point of this thread.

you took the words out of my mouth.

12 hours to farm gems, when you dont need to?

Your given the 4 gems when you complete DoA, as part of the quest inside it. That was my point with which ever post it was.

You dont need to spend 12 hours farming the gems unless you choose to use the 4 your given for something else other then Razah. In which case thats your daft fault.

But yes once you get Razah with the 4 your given, you would need to farm more to get a gold weapon or new armor.

But people are on about how accessible Razah is.

So your estimate at 6 hours to complete DoA is more accurate at how long it would take to get Razah, although that still seems long to me.

Number of character who have beat Nightfall 6 of 9
(Warrior Necromancer Assassin Paragon Dervish Ranger - All skills unlocked or captured for PvE for these classes)

Number of total hours trying to find a competant group for DoA 27, Number of DoA runs that last longer than 1 hour, 2. Average Time it takes to find a group, 2 hours. Average time of death of party joined 5 minutes for total party wipe and I am usualy the last to die. Average team split after total party wipe 15 seconds.

Is it worth it for the average skilled player ....

You do the Math

The average player will have trouble getting through all of DoA for those four gems. The casual player, who only has 1-2 hours a day to play, will have a tough time getting Razah unlocked... trying to find a group... finding a competant group... setting up... takes out a large portion of their time.

Does it seem fair that because of the difficulty of area, that a average/casual player cannot get a normal Hero? Not to me.

Sure, Anet cannot just cater to the casual players. But we are talking about a Ritualist hero, not a variable hero. What is so elite about the Ritualist hero? What makes Razah so special that only a smaller percentage of the player base can acquire him?

Ok for a rit hero it is a bit much, but Razah is very reasonable to acquire 4 gems drop is a joke compared to what you all are making it out to be.. now even more with the two man farm builds.
http://geocities.com/bj91x/DoA.jpg

Ask yourselve how long it took you to get master of whisper, the mid-heros etc .. 6 -8 hours isn't that big of a deal. Would you just like to appear in your party list without doing anything??


and it is going to take the average player more then 8 hours to beat all the doa quests unless you have a guide




o an i don't care about razah i am going for the Torment Shield 25 of each gem

i just unlocked him with faction- paragons and dervs arent exactly the #1 needed class in Anguish for sure... even when I do get into a group I am disapointed at peoples' general tendancy to give up after the first party wipe... unfortunately the next closest is my assassin which I assume will be even worse for finding groups there (no LB rank to boot)

so... better go dust off my ele - seems the easiest way to get into a group (and least work required when there for sure)- although I did just get my Mez to Dasha mission... maybe I will start using Mez for more than pvp...

it would be nice to have razah on my pve characters but honestly I think ill be fine with good ol' talkora and olias. Im not too worried about it. I unlocked razah as soon as he was 6k fax.

What I want is a Torment Focus for my IW mez. That would be hawt.

Besides- give it enough time and the gems will be everywhere - with how easy it is to GET to the elite area, there is a LOT more people aquiring them than say Deep or Urgoz rares. Id say a perfect zodiac is worth far more in reality than a stupid torment gem- and anyone paying out their ass for them now is basically shooting themselves in the foot- unless they SERIOUSLY cant hack anguish (not that I claim to be doing well yet - a few more LB ranks should do it square)

Your missing the point. The "average skilled player" on this thread is someone who has leeched their way through prophecies. Then they leeched their way through factions and now that they are done leeching their way through nightfall want to leech their way through DoA. The "average skills player" is an expert at loading a template with barrage and a pet on his bar. They are incapable of creating their own builds, much less a team build so they look to join someone elses group. Since there isn't an easy plan yet to beat DoA, the groups have no one to lead them and have no chance.

If you want to beat DoA and get your little rit hero, take initiative. I remember the first week of factions, XoO randomly let in a couple dozen random people from HzH. I knew none of the people and the majority of them sucked, but we started playing Urgoz every night. We developed a team build and were one of the first people to beat Urgoz. Several members of the party sold their longbows for over a million.

So you have a choice, you can either wait a month for an easy template for you to download of wiki and C+Space or you can make the template yourself. It isn't horribly time taking with Urgoz the majority of our group were part time players (we had 2 euros who would play during their work break ). Anet making missions of this difficulty are not to screw over casual players. Rather it is to reward good players with initiative. They will be the first to get the new items/armors/et cetera. Eveyone else will get them, they just wont get them first.

Seperating players based on skill, a hard concept for PvE ers.

Loving the arrogance there. Let me lecture you. You seem to need it. Now I want you to read this carefully. When you say that something or some one is a majority or minority, FACT is usually involved. Not PERCEPTION. Now you compared Pokemon to Guild Wars with the exception being "The good guy wins in the end". Did you not SEE THE ENDING OF THE PAST THREE GAMES?! Making many posts of irrelevance is far inferior to the one post that this "newcomer" made and actually outsmarted you. Where is your poll, survey or evidence that these people are a minority? I will ask you one more time. Read through the thread. Take notes of those for and those against. You will have an insight to who the true minority truly is.

Do you have stats to back up these statements?Seems like folks throw stuff out there and because they believe it true it must be.
I see opinions like this but try not judge all by it.Maybe your confuseing your methods of going thru the game with others.
I hero/henched my way all the way threw NF and most of Factions.First I wanted to see if it could be done.Second because of people like you.
There is nothing like going thru a mission with a good pug.People that work together...let me repeat that..people that work together....Priceless

100% agree.
How many people bother doing Tombs (PUGs, mind) outside of Barrage/Pet groups?

And just how do you know all these people haven’t tried? Speculation does not equal facts if you have really been reading what other people post you would see that this is the opposite of your statement.

That is your reason of thinking, however you assume other people have that much time to spare. You also use the basic rhythmic time calculations four hours to complete a quest would take four days. This reasoning of thinking is flawed due to many other unseen complications which can either shorten or add time to take to complete. My hypothesis is that the casual players who make up the majority of the community do not have that much time to spend a day. So really it’s not the point at all it’s only your point of view.

Your only purpose here is it to disrupt, flame, and insult people who have a different opinion. Let me see if I get this straight, its ok for you to “whine” but not ok for anyone else thus you feel you should attack them.

Obtaining Razah isn’t nerfing an area. Plus running the basic wammo farming cookie cutter build isn’t challenging. So by this people who call for nerfing of skills are “whiners”.

Actuality if you want the Ritualist hero you are forced to.

Don’t flatter yourself, you would know the difference if I were.

No, you made full clear in this post what your issues truly are. Read your quotes above.

You should follow your own advice.

Just shifting through old screenies. The attached one was taken one of the first times we reached Urgoz, it is dated May 18th (about the second week of factions?) so we first started playing a week earlier. I say one of the first because I don't remember a couple people being in the party the first time we got their. /fond memories btw, a later version of that prot bar (which included Spirit Bond back when it was broken) was one of my favorite bars ever to play =) but we ended up replacing it with a ritualist for ease to play and the benefit of using non-spell protection.

I think it wasn't till our third time to get there that we actually killed him. Till the free admit week, we played almost every night and were able to beat the mission routinly in 2.5 hours using a balanced team.

It is hard to come up with actual evidence, but below is a link taken by one of the participants on some of the times he came along. There are 6 wins in there, but most are later on.

http://www.jaldus.com/ade/gw/farm/farm.html

I don't know if there is a way to pull up old auction files, but I sold the longbow for 700k. Regretfully I was one of the later ones in the group to get one so it didnt sell for a lot.

What other evidence to show off my epeen with /scratch chin. We tried numerous things to kill Urgoz before we found out EoE worked (it was initially a joke, but was a pleasant surprise). Urgoz's attack can not be diverted, he is immune to thievery skills, and can not be blacked out. Not to many people know about immunity to blackout which is probably a good thing.

OOOh I know. Ultimate evidence, I know what ORARY is. If that doesn't make sense to you, there is a reason why The devs accidently labeled something ORARY and corrected it soon after release, but I will leave that to be a little secret among those who could stomach Urgoz early on. Trust me, if you made any significant progress in the warren even in the first month after release, you would know what ORARY is.

Back to your post, I enjoy henchies too and do most things with hench. I got a r3 survivor by using only henchies for prophecies and factions. Henchies are underestimated and it is fun to just pick up and go, but it is also nice to have areas of the game which are challenging enough to require team work and creative thought. It is a pleasant alternative to C+Space.

I just wonder what I would do if I didn't have henchmen to "drag" me through missions, like most "average skilled players."

Wow that two man (1.5 really) build is so great. *sarcasm*

How about the people who don't have a primary elementalist in DoA?

To get Master of Whispers took me all of 10 minutes. It took me about 10 minutes to get each of my heroes.
Now, 10 x 14 = 140 minutes (2 hours, 20 minutes). So it takes longer to get a single ritualist hero, then it does to get all the others.

My arrogance? Glad I can be of amusement. Let's set a couple of flaws you have straight shall we? Splendid.

Flaw One: You appearntly missed the second to last mission in the game "Factions." when the good guys lost a good guy. Perhaps you may remember him as Master Togo? If not, here is a link to him using Guildwiki - Master Togo

Flaw Two: My reference to Pokemon was not only as a "good guy wins", it was to help explain the maturity level that I explained in a rather long post. Please view it to understand and to "Read it carefully" as you so kindly placed to me.

Flaw Three: Again, you've seemed not to read through the entire thread and miss my post where I've explained that people, the minority as I see it, are coming here to this topic to follow the rules of Guru Forums. If there where not rules, we would have dozens of "Change Razah" topics. You right tho, if I went through this thread, my self and others appear to be the minority in a topic dedicated to a minority wanting Razah obtained easier. But viewing the over all picture, I'm not. Once more, as I've already stated in a reply, I do not have hardcore information on a piece of paper to show you the minority/majority. All I have is my personal observation's of the GuildWarsGuru Forums for the past year and a month.

Now, what I don't quiet understand is how so many of you are upset and angered with me and my opinions. I'm not angered with you for wanting Razah changed. Annoyed, perhaps. Angered and upset? Not by the slightest. Perhaps it's because I'm the only one willing to talk about all of this in the manner it's being discussed and you weren't expecting it, who knows? I surely don't.

It takes a lot to outsmart me in a debate as it was placed earlier in this thread, again directly to me in a more angered-like posting. I'm not here to stir the kettle full of dung. You guys are doing that job when you get so angered at me. You don't know me, I don't know you. If you get angered over a computer screen, I am honestly sorry for you. Your time is best spent reading a book and cooling down, hanging out with a friend or walking your dog then attempting to bring someone else down because you had a bad day, came home and couldn't obtain Razah as easily as you'd of liked.

After this reply, I attend for it to be my last for this thread. I know, I hear the "yay rahs!" already, touching. But, this isn't worth my time and the effort, so you can understand both sides of the party as I have and often do.

I hope the people who get so easily angered over a computer game, and a online forum will begin to do the same. It's meant to be fun, so try to enjoy it.

I think you did. I was pointing out where the discussion on gem drops came from - which could have led to people thinking you actually NEED them rather than 'simply' doing the quest. That said, the gem drop rate is still relevant - if, for example, you could expect to get a gem of each type from drops while completing the quest to get them as rewards, you'd only need to complete it half as many times to get Razah for all your characters. Which is a big difference, especially if it means you only need to do it with characters that are reasonably easy to get groups for... or, dare I say it, may even be able to solo it. While Lucifer hasn't explicitly stated (s)he can do anything other than basic super-Margonite groups, it is implied - and if it does turn out that farming (ugh) for stones rather than doing the quest is a more efficient means of gathering them, that has a bearing on Razah's availability. For instance, if every bad guy you killed in the Domain of Anguish dropped a stone of the appropriate type, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. (Clearly this isn't the case, and it's an extreme example anyway, but it illustrates the point.)

EDIT: Neriandal, if you read this: A word of advice. I've done a spot of debating in my time, and one of the first rules there is to attack the argument, not the person. As soon as you get personal, you lose credibility. Sometimes it can be a far call in a debate to cite previous examples of where your opponents judgement in a similar matter is flawed (for instance, if a particular political party has ruined a country's economy in the past and is still composed of the same members, it's probably fair to cite that as a reason why their economic judgement may be lacking), but without such evidence, attacking your opponent directly is simply giving them the moral high ground.

So, in the context of this particular thread:
It is a fair argument to state that all it takes is a few hours dedication is all that is needed to attain the reward. It's even true, for a certain value of 'few'. There are also plenty of counterarguments - my primary one being that needing to complete DoA for the sole Ritualist hero breaks the mold that elite areas are only for vanity and that you don't miss out on anything you can't get anywhere else by not doing them (there's the caseline again!) - but it is certainly a fair argument.

It is a fair argument to state that someone who proudly proclaims themselves to be an elite player or a member of an elite guild is probably biased - for them, the hurdle simply isn't as high as for everyone else, so it isn't so much of an issue. Especially the elite guild part - someone who can bring guildies of known competance together to form their own groups of reliable players has a significant advantage over someone who can't. Likewise, anyone who claims that a Ritualist hero isn't worth having anyway has shown themselves to be biased - they don't care about Ritualist heroes, so why should they care how hard or easy it is to acquire one?

It is not a productive argument to point at everyone who disagrees with you and claim that they're all spoilt preteens whinging that they can't have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Doing so just makes you look bad yourself - and, as you may have noticed, tends to get people a little annoyed at you.

Gloom took about 1 1/2
City took about 1 1/2
Stygian took about 2 hours
Foundry seems to take about 2 1/2-3 hours the screen shot i posted earlier was from that.


After thinking about it i guess since Razah is a Rit and a faction class he shouldn't be hard to acquire, but this is anet just telling you to own all three games was the reason for his creation.

To note i understand that many people can not get in a good pug group and the times i posted above are times for quest completion not forming groups etc..... but these quests are meant to be difficult and with that the rewards not easily attained.
Sorry for the flame

Lucifer, you forgot this SS

Where we beat the first quest of the Foundry of the Failed Creation with HEROES

I still haven't seen any "the difficulty of obtaining Razah is just fine", "make Razah harder to recruit", "it's too easy to get Razah" or "I love Keeper Millzesh" threads to back up the claim that the people who have indifferent or favorable attitudes toward the difficulty of obtaining Razah are the majority.

I would just like to say - I love DoA. Dont change a thing. Except maybe more chests, I would like that.

And the level 30 bosses only have 1360 health. Whats up with that? Rotscale has 16,740 health. C'mon!

I wouldn't call that a flame . Actually some useful information in there - it sets a baseline for just how much time it takes with a decent group.

Yes, the quests are meant to be difficult and not easy to obtain. I just don't think the only Ritualist hero in the game should be one of the difficult and not easy to obtain rewards. Everything else in there are good examples of elite rewards - things that look good and prestigious without providing any exclusive mechanical benefits. Razah sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb in comparison.

Out of interest, how many gem drops have you seen while doing that?

5-6 on Stygian. 3-4 Greens. 2 Chests.

Generally, we've had about 5 gemstones drop per quest run.

All the quests minus foundry dropped about 4-6.. I have done titan twice and havn't seen one gem drop and we cleared the four rooms and did the 2nd quest.

I presume that's 4-6 gems for the whole party? Meaning that, apart from the Titan gems, each person has about a 65% chance of getting a gem drop?

The lack of Titan gems dropping is interesting... is there a noticible reduction in the number of creatures dropping things (I believe Titans only drop from their final parts) or is it that for some reason the gems just aren't dropping there?

If we assume that the lack of Titan gemstones dropping is a bug, then after that bug gets fixed it sounds like we'd be looking at two runs per three characters to get Razah for all your characters, or three runs per two characters if you just take one character and do it over and over again. If we take your quoted times as standard, that would mean that to get Razah for all of a player's characters would take an expected 6.5 hours or so per character if each successful run is with a different character, or 15 hours per character after the first if you do it by just grabbing one character and doing it over and over again. Not counting time spent learning the area, trying builds, and/or trying to find groups.

yes there is a very noticable difference in drop rates, i would guess we killed about 150ish titans a run and the only thing to drop a gem was a margnite. but my group always seems to be nerfed so who knows.

No, it's over 100% chance per person.
There's a chest at the end of each quest, that GUARNTEES everyone get a gemstone.

So each person has 165% chnace of getting a gemstone.
1 from the chest, and 50-65% of another one from drops.

Is this from firsthand experience? All the accounts I've read say that the chests drop "a gemstone" rather than "one gemstone for every party member". Also, do the overlords always spawn, or do you need someone in your party who still needs to kill a given overlord for the Mallyx quest?

Yes, it is Gordon. We've ran multiple quests several times.
They work like a regular chest, and each member of your team has to go and open it.
The only diffrence is, it doens't require any keys to open it, and the content seems to be always the same.

We never had a member who didn't get a gemstone from the chest.

And the quests are repeatable, so there's no worry about overlords not being there.
Every time you enter the area, the entire series of quests refreshes new.
Meaning, you can't just finish the first part, zone out, come back and continue.
You must complete all tasks in one run.

That's what makes these quests hard... they are long, and constantly next to an instant wipe.

Now here's the thing, Princess. I'm not angry about Razah. I don't ever plan to get a ritualist. I have no use for one. Oh, and you might want to read about Shiro. Who was it that beat him once his ritual was complete? Another bad guy? No, what really annoys me is that your ONLY comeback and your ONLY conclusion for not wanting a variation of Razah, WHICH THIS IS ALL ABOUT, is that people are younger than you and play Pokemon. Now I can understand people not wanting DoA easier. I know I don't. But what this thread is all about is making a variation of Razah that IS easily obtainable for reasons stated throughout this thread. One person that browses the forums without having polls as evidence can't judge a true minority. You can come back when you can argue points with points rather than flaunting a baseless age factor. As far as I see it, you've lost the debate. You had no evidence for your false claims and you chose to leave when I brought up your only "solid" point. Like I, and many others have said, this isn't about making the game easier. This is about having an alternative. Every one else has comprehended that. Maybe once you have your time to cool down after your defeat, you will learn this too.

Yes the chest at the end of each quest has a 100% chance of the gem for the given area to drop for each party member, I was talking about drops not including the end chest. So the 65% is correct. During the Gloom quest an alliance member had 4 torment gems drop for him in one run not including the chest reward..

Side note if i would have to guess the fury is going to be like the UW dreamriders when it dies

No... just 100%.

And that is just like saying I still havn't seen any "life is great" "Make Life harder" "life is to easy" or "I love you" Threads... Just because 20 people have a complaint doesn't mean guildwars 600k plus players have an issue.