Make all grind-based titles account based.

The fact that they have MANY characters is a huge advantage in terms of available types of gameplay and team builds and solo builds they can play, as well as the variety of functions they can play through what they have learned through playing multiple characters.


The first time through or the second time through? Try the 17th time through?

If you wanna make it less boring, it has to be less boring the first time through.

Adding a stipulation that favors those who have done things before through outside forces (enhancing a fresh newbie character for example with abilities available only to veteran characters) other than their own personal skill and knowledge gained through first playing through is the very definition of unfair gameplay.

If you want to make it less boring by doubling up points, adding more ways to gain points, more quests etc, I am in favor of that certainly since it benefits players, no matter how many characters they have and no matter how many times they have played through the game, wheter its the first time, or the 17th time.


But its still the same amount of time per character. The one with 1 character chose to focus on one character. The one with many chose to focus on many characters.

Having multiple characters does not increase the amount of time. Its still the same amount of time.

You are disputing basic mathematics.

1 x 100 hours = 100 hours
6 x 100 hours = 600 hours

You are trying to make the following true.

1 x 100 hours = 100 hours
6 x 100 hours = 100 hours

If you dont have a lot of time, how can you expect to play so many characters?

Thats what really boggles my mind.

-==-=--=-==-=-=---

i think what this thread really falls down to is Socialism vs Capitalism.

The problem I can see with your post lyra is that you seem to be saying, because group x gets advantage y they should be stuck with limit z.

Whats wrong with improving things?

This change would remove the limit allowing those who enjoy multiple chars not to miss out on titles while also not having to miss out on multiple chars.

Whos stopping you making more characters?

Anet isnt, im not and Joe Blogg isnt either. Just because there are alot of titles ingame to earn (if you choose) is no reason to argue that they are a prevention to making more characaters.

You dont need to earn those titles everytime, but if you choose to then its choice and no one elses.

No ones forcing you to earn them either.

And titles such as LB, SS and GWEN may have required ranks to access certain things or to progress, but those ranks can be reached by just playing the game.

If you then choose to continue to earn those titles and push beyond those ranks its no ones choice by your own. Your not made to max them out.

Again with this barrier nonsense. No one is stopping you from making more characters. When i make a new character I dont think to myself...

"Oh damn, I cant make another character because ill need to earn that title again. Damn Anet, I cant do it!! "

...try to be realistic. You say "But I also want to get a title should I want to. ", well great. Go earn that title if you want, but its not Anet business if you choose to.

I really wish people would stop trying to argue that titles create a barrier to making new characters. They dont! They do nothing of the kind, the reason being that titles are optional.

Those which are required at certain ranks are attianable by just playing!

If you want higher ranks, its no one choice but yours!




If you could argue that without these titles maxed out, you couldnt proceed ingame or do a certain task, quests, mission or dungeon then Id sign this.

But you dont need LB, SS or any GWEN titles maxed to do anything. Yes it may be fun to max them out, but that is your choice.

Reaching the ranks in SS and LB to proceeed ingame is done through quests. The ranks needed for armor and weapons in GWEN are done through quests and bounties.

If you feel you need to max them for pve only skill use then fine. Im not going to say dont, because some are usefull. But you dont need them to play.

You cant expect Anet to turn a few skills on their head just because you all want some maxed out pve only skills which arent necessary to anything

That is all this is about. Wanting pve only skills maxed out the instance you get them. You dont need them maxed! Most are just as effective at rank 5.

Before I continue I would just like to point out that everything in a game is optional. Max armour is optional, max weapons, pink hair whatever.

That however doesnt mean not having max doesnt put you at a disadvantage. If I went round with 40AL I would be at a disadvantage to someone in max armour right?

Well its the same for pve skills and bounuses from titles. Yeah you dont need them to be max, but you are at a disadvantage if you dont. So if you play more than one char without increasing the ammount of time you play. You are suddenly at a disadvantage, because even though you have achieved the same thing, the system currently rewards one while not the other.


So to argue against it with the case of you dont need it really doesnt get anywhere. Because you could use that against everything. At the end of the day its a game. It doesnt matter. That doesnt mean however things cant be improved.


I also never said we are being stopped from making new chars, but the system does favour those who play with one instead of many. It should reward the player not the character. As it is the player who is playing.


As for the comment about most being just as effective at R5 to max they arent and you know it.

Air of Superiority lasts a whole 11 seconds longer.
Summon Naga Shaman is 5 levels highers and lasts 16 seconds longer
Great Dwarf Armor lasts 16 seconds longer

Thats a huge difference.

And because I choose to play multiple chars even though I have achieved just as much as someone else, I dont get the rewards.

The change would stop that.

Setting aside what Lyra said for a moment, I'm not following you on this statement. What you appear to be trying to say is "because group x gets advantage y should too." I cant agree with that. The part about the limit you appear to be trying to say Group Y has one and X does not. A limit, if there is one, is in place for all, which is simply each character needs to earn the bonus irrespective of the fact that you, the player, do it multiple times if you want said bonus on multiple characters.

Lyra's post I agree with 100%. Couple things I'll quote though might as well have quoted the whole thing for emphasis:

Doesnt get much more straightforward than that. I was saying much the same thing. Want those bonus effects on multiple characters? You need to work on said character to put it there. No one said either that you need to max all the tracks or even develop all of them. They function just fine at a rank of 5 which easily happens just by playing and they are fairly easy to get to a rank of 8 on a couple tracks.

Each character doesnt have to have all the tracks to 8+ let alone maxed. That becomes more a goal for a seeker of KoaBD or someone who is heavily focused on one character. Want to heavily focus on more than one character? Ok, but you cant have your cake and eat it too.

The point is, its the player who has gone and done it.

By maxing a grind title ive shown that I can complete it. Doing it again is just more grind. Choosing to play multiple chars shouldnt mean you have to grind more or just give up on titles. It can be changed so people who play with multiple chars can do both.

As for having your cake and eating it, this is a game. Anet makes its money by selling the game. If they can keep their customers happy they get more money when they continue buy their games. Right now players who take multiple chars are at a disadvantage.

That makes us sad

If it was changed so not only could we play how we want without being forced to grind or skip part of the game....

We would be happy

Obviously. What I said though wasnt that they were just as effective. I said they were not dysfunctional at level 5. Please dont start making things up.

If you play multiple characters and earn max rank Asura on one character, max rank Norn on another, max rank SS and LB on another - you have earned EXACTLY the same rewards as the player that decided to place them all on one. Exactly the same.

The flexibility is different. You hopefully put Asura on a character that can best take advantage of AoS and Pain Inverter, whereas you put max ranked Norn on more than likely a frontliner. This flexibility allows bonuses spread out over several roles. I have opted instead to put them all on one.

You get exactly the same rewards. I do not see where you do not.

Yes it would. I agree at least with that.

1) You cant compare maxed pve only skills to max armor because there is 1.5k max armor sets ingame. Sets which are easily affordable to all.

Also max armor is a necessity, because their is no alternative to its use. If you dont have it, you simply wont survive high end areas, or you will be constantly putting the team at a disadvantage.

2) Explain to me, precisely, at what point in the game are you disadvantaged if you dont have a pve only skill maxed out?

All quests, missions, dungeons, exploration and elite areas can be completed without the use of a pve only skill. Even LB gaze isnt needed to play ROT.

But even LB gaze is just effective at low ranks as at high! The status effects ar even effect at low ranks!

Also most pve only skills have a similar (if not exact) counterpart amoung the normal skills! Skills which seem to have done the job for the last 1-2 years, so why do we need them to be more powerfull?

PvE only skills are designed to mimic (to an extent) normal skills, but they dont force you to have a set profession to use them. That was their purpose and also to have a set of skills not effected by PvP. But most are near identical to existing skills.

So are you suggesting that since the conception of pve only skills, you simply cannot play the game without them?

How did we manage before they were added NF? We seemed to cope for nearly a year! So again, explain to me exactly how a person is disadvantaged if they dont have pve only skills maxed?

Describe the situations and/or areas ingame which require a pve only skill, or you simply cant proceed!

If you try to say "you might not be allowed into pugs unless your a certain rank", then that is nonsense. I am yet to see a person be judged on their LB, SS or GWEN ranks. I am yet to see a person being forced to use a pve only skill.

Im usually the only person takes Alkar's acid into Glint's challenge and we survive that. Most people in those teams are rank1-5 Drawf and we still see to manage against the destroyers!

So tell me how and where you are disadvantaged?

lol i jus couldn't help but notice this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10214213

yea its prolly more of a flaw with pve only skills, than it is with the titles, but hey... pve skills do matter now =P

and theres an infinite difference between: slightly more effective, and not more effective at all
and theres by comparison very little difference between: slightly more effective, and significantly more effective

And what relevance is that?

Lets take some pure simple concepts in game design.

First we establish the player. You. You are the player.
Next we establish the character. Your character.
Next we establish the game concept. We will take the simplest of all concepts. Go from point A to point B. This is essentially what Guild Wars can be boiled down to, with the addage of "kill stuff along the way".

So the player is taking the character from point A to point B and beats the game.
Now the player wants to take another character from point A to point B again.

What relevance does the player's first time affect the second time?

There is only be one thing. Player experience.
The player will know how to do game objectives and beat things faster.
The player will which areas to do first, which to skip, which are harder, which are easier.

Player experience does not equate to character experience.

Character experience can only be quantifiable in game terms like amount of gold, map uncovered, equipped armor, XP earned by character, attributes, skills gained, towns unlocked, and how far into the game that character is.


Yes. This is true.

It "shouldn't" is not enough justification, when it seemed that it was perfectly fine the first time through.

Again. If you want to change it, make it better the first time through. No advantages the second time. Make it less grindy the first time.

If you hate the grind so much, REMOVE IT, make it easier, make it faster, do not set a level grind you are willing to accept the first time, but not the second time, when each time is in fact a unique experience on its own.

The cake is a lie.

I finished playing Portal the second time through before i checked this thread. I beat it with the developers commentary on. I beat it VERY fast, compared to how long it took me the first time.

The playthrough with the dev commentary is a mode where they add these speech bubbles and the developers talk aboout specific game design issues, and decisions they made. However, there is no special advantage given to the player in this mode.

I beat the mode faster because I gained my skills as a player the first time through. What carried over is my own player experience at solving the puzzles and flinging (speedy thing goes in, speedy thing goes out).

I was given no special advantage, since I am playing the game through pretty much the same way, with a slight difference.

To me this is not about business, or player happiness

This is about a functioning game design with specific purposes that works.

Changing this game design to something that doesn't work for the sake of satisfying players who do not have the time, or willingness to invest time in multiple characters (which is puzzling since having many characters in any game requires time) is an adverse and negative change for the game and the gaming community as a whole.

You make me very sad.

You just contradicted yourself. the grind is part of the game. yet you dont want to be forced to skip part of the game.

Make up your mind.

edit:
I was just thinking about that one thread that suggested that we should be allowed to change our PRIMARY class and how this thread reminds me of that.

"You just contradicted yourself. the grind is part of the game. yet you dont want to be forced to skip part of the game."

grind / TITLES was ADDED to the game. it would not be a problem if Titles were not linked to PVE SKILLs.

Its not about skipping part of the game its about not REPEATING THE SAME PART OVER AND F-ING OVER FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO ARTIFICIALLY EXTEND THE LIFESPAN OF SAID GAME.

the proposed changes affects the so called "hardcore" RPGer in NO WAY. if you dont LIKE IT DONT USE IT.

It is PART of GWEN/Nightfall's design. So it is part of the game.

The problem isn't that they are linked to PvE skills. The problem here is that it is BORING.

And repeating it is PURELY your choice.

You choose to repeat it.

Stop complaining that you have to repeat it when it was your choice to repeat it.

Stop complaining about REPEATING IT.

And start complaining about why its there in the FIRST PLACE.

Well if you dont want to repeat it, dont repeat it.

Its not even about being hardcore or casual. The game treats both the same way in regards to the grind titles. It takes time. You can spend the time to do it, or not. Its up to you.

I accept that, but im still waiting for someone to give me a detailed list of instances ingame when you are disadvantaged if you have a non-maxed pve only skill!!

Someone explain indepth when having a non-maxed skill in GWs is going to put you in a disadvantaged situation?

And I dont mean comments like "well if you use it, it would be easier so without it your disadvantaged". I mean list me situations where you cannot complete a task, quest, mission, dungeon or elite/normal zone/instance unless you have a maxed pve only skill in your skill bar to use!

Im waiting for someone to prove this "your disadvantaged if your pve only skills arent maxed" statement!

Someone in here?

Because otherwise I would love to know how we managed for nearly a year before they were added!

Yea i agree. You will be under no circumstances prevented from unlocking hardmode, because you don't have access to pve skills.

But even if what you say about giving no advantage to a character with maxed pve skills in relation to a character with minimal ranks in the titles, is true, it doesn't justify the current system. The proposal might be entirely more enjoyable than the current system.

Just the same, the fact that a player has completed a title, shouldn't justify it being displayed across characters.

The whole topic really just boils down to whether you prefer to play a game which encourages identity via association with only one character, or if you prefer a game that encourages play of multiple characters.

Character based titles encourage association with a single identity in the character's profession. Account based titles encourage play across the board of professions, but you would lose the sense of identity, whereby you can say "Im a Necro, i love heavy metal, etc".(well thats my take on it anyway)

With more characters you give up identity, but you gain more a indepth gameplay experience.

You never cease to amaze me, fish. How about you answer your own question, except replace "a non-maxed skill" with "a non-max armor," "a non-max weapon," and "not all attribute points."

I asked you this before, and I never got an answer, so I'll ask again:

Hypothetically, if there were endgame armor that added +5 extra armor per class (PvE-only effect), but could only be purchased when you get, let's say rank 10 in some ridiculously heavy grind title (let's say Treasure Hunter or something); well, would you be ok with that? I mean, +5 armor is not a lot, it's a very "slight advantage." And, ya know, everyone is fine with normal armor; it works fine before, and it'll work fine after. Right?

You beat me to this exact type of reply

Also, fish, what rank do you get by simply playing the game, not grinding for the titles? 5? possibly less.
Now, please visit one of the GW Wiki sites, and check the EotN skills.
Are you still saying the difference between rank 5 and rank 10 isn't big?

Titles were introduce to GW as an 'End-of-Game' content to extend the life of GW.

So wouldn't spreading these titles over your entier account defeat the intended purpose of said titles?

As for those that bring up Skill > Time arguments, PvE is not really what they had in mind for that. PvP is skill over time.

In PvE the lvl 20 cap, 200 attribute points and armor/weapons are the balancing factor, not a players skill.

The 'grind' needed to reach rank 10 in a pve skill title can be compared to the 'grind' needed to reach lvl 20. The cap is in place and is attainable to every player.

O really? Can you back this up? They said "skill > time but in pvp only"?
Bullshit. I got to 20 lvl with pve chars just by playing the game, now get to R10 in GWEN by playing the game.

/not signed for making this game any easier then it already is.

/signed

It's not about being easy. It's about grinding being boring. If I grind, I want the benefits of that all the time. I did the grinding, not my character itself, so why does only the single character get the benefits and not all of my account?

1) The example is daft (sorry) and would never happen because the wisdom title has no logically connection to armor at all.

You cant make an example like needing rank10 wisdom for armor, and compare that to needing rank5 Norn or Asura etc etc.

The GWEN title are connected to the storyline and have a purpose because you are meant to earn their respect before you can get their gear. How exactly would wisdom work in that respect?

Try to use a more realistic example next time.

2) No I wouldnt care! Im sure there are new green weapons on the market which are better then my current gear and give extra health or energy or some edge but I dont run out and get them.

I could put an armor+5 mod onto a weapon and get that boost, but I dont!

Are you another one of these people who wants to deny its possible to get rank 5 accross by races by just playing GWEN?

Grow up! I did it and it is possible. Believe me or not, I dont care! So yes, you can get rank 5 on all title in GWEN by just playin the game. What was your point? This just shows armor and weapons in GWEN are easily accessed if you just play the actual game.

And yes rank10 will make your pve only skills more powerfull, but as Ive asked before and no one has answered!

Why do we need pve only skills maxed out? what aspect of the game requires and needs you to have them maxed out? Someone answer me that!!

You know what I find entertaining. If they did actually make these titles account based, and you all had maxed pve only skills from the start and maxed status effects from the start....

...I bet you would all turn around and start winging that GWEN was suddenly too easy due to the added damage and oober strong skills at your disposal!

And once again BlackSephir is incapable of posting an intelligent responce, because all he/she knows how to do is flame and insult people for expressing their opinions.

This is the point which baffles me more then anything.

You all started playing GWs knowing it was an RP/MMO which was a set playing style. I.E you create a character in pve and progess them through the storyline and that characters individual actions and achievement result in better armor, weapons and skills etc etc.

That is the basic premis for any RPG and MMO!

PvP on the other hand is different because its basically like playing a FPS where all that matters is how well you kill and your characters are disposable and increasing your ranks there. So having account based title in pve is understandable.

But an RPG is an RPG! It works in a set way. Also you were all perfectly happy to create new characters and to endure any grind which existed until pve only skills were added. Why? What is so special and astounding about pve only skills that entire threads like this are needed?

The answer is nothing!

All you see is "ooo powerfull skill" and all of a sudden its the holy grail of all skills! Regardless of whether it actually of any use, or whether you need it to accomplish anything or whether its even important. You just see a skill which can be very powerfull and you want it!

Is that justification to start making comments like "pve only skills + titles has created a barrier to creating new characters"? No it isnt!

Not if you were perfectly happy to endure the other grind which has existed since day one in GWs and yet you still made new chars. Yet when the grind doesnt suit you, and you cant get what you want easily, all of a sudden its a "barrier" and you all blow it out of proportion!

I can remember when people kicked off after titles were added, because apparently it was adding more grind which they had to endure. Was anyone forcing them to max titles before pve only skills were added? Nope! At the start none of them even had benefits to earning them and still people tried to argue they were being pressured into it.

Wheres the logic in that?

Then they added benefits to titles and suddenly again we're being forced to max them out! What benefits? to make you a little bit luckier or to add one point more damage to a creature? Big deal. Can you not manage without that! Are you that bad a player you desperately need an extra pip of damage against a minion or destroyer or char?

Then they connected skills to certain titles and again people are saying we're being forced into maxing them! How exactly? what importance do these skills have that you feel pressured into maxing them out?

Its like a kid in a toy store! The latest toy is out and they want it, regardless of whether they need it! But in the case of pve only skills you have to put some work in to make them stronger and those same people winge.

I completely understand the want to have everything ingame. To have all armor and weapons, all skills (normal, elite and pve only), to have all exploration and all titles maxed out. But you dont need all those things. You can play this game without them. I just wish people would drop this nonsense about being forced into grinding and they would admit their choosing to do it.

Even if they removed the title + pve only skill requirement, you would all start winging about some other aspect of grind afterwards. Some of you will not be happy unless everything ingame is given to you with out needing any effort. I also realise some of you wont have alot of time to spare and you cant spend hours collecting this or that, or exploring or maxing a title.

So why are you playing an RPG or MMO which requires hours of play? Thats like shooting yourself in the foot and complaining you pressed the trigger!

You knew when you started it was a game which required hours of play and time put into it! You cant then turn around and complain you havent time to earn stuff and you want it all given to you.

Must say I haven't read a huge amount of this thread, beyond the OP's post, but /signed for what it's worth.

Titles are the only part of Guild Wars that routinely piss me off. With GW:EN's HoM and snarky NPC's they've become elevated (for me) to near game-breaking levels of irritation.

I know there has always been this attitude in GW that some things should be held back for those who work - that there should be stuff which is "exclusive" in some way, and that's fine, so long as you judge everyone's work equally. Character-based titles clearly favour players who focus their efforts on 1 or 2 toons, over an entire accounts worth. Not really acceptable in a game which gives at least 8 slots to a "fully-chaptered" account and from a company that encourages the purchase of more.

What aspect of the game requires a maxed weapon? I finished proph without a max dmg bow.
What aspect of the game requires max armour? I finished proph without a max AL mask.

Of course its possible.

That doesnt stop the fact that not having max isnt a disadvantage.

pve skills have even more effect than a non max weapon for example.
Losing 1 max dmg on your weapon.
Losing 32 dmg on "You Move Like a Dwarf!". (Plus 5 secods of cripple)

You cant say there isnt a disadvantage to not having them maxed because there is. With the current system playing with multiple chars means you are at a disadvantage because even though you have done exactly the same as someone else, you come out with a disadvantage.


*Edit to include freekedoutfish's edit*


Because GW is advertised as a game where skill>time?
Because it was advertised we wouldnt have to spend ages grinding just to be at the same level as others.
That a casual player could join and have access to everything?

You are just as equal to the guy next to you, regardless of whether you have a maxed pve title or not.

There seems to be some missconception that you need a maxed set of pve only skills to be a "good player", or at the very least "on equal ground" to everyone else.

Which is just simply nonsense. As you said, you dont need max armor or max weapons to complete these games either. It may be harder, but it can be done.

Obviously most would use max gear and weapons to make it fair on the rest of the team, otherwise you are unfairly making them protect you because your more prone to taking damage.

But having your pve only skills not be max, doesnt make you less equal thenthe guy next to you. Its about skill and experience, not whether you have every skill ingame.

What about those players who dont even own GWEN! Are they disadvantaged because they cant even access GWEN pve only skills? Are they less equal then you for the same reason?

Ofcourse not!

It worries me that people think they have to own the exact same stuff as everyone else ingame, to be considered "equal" or "as good as them". You dont!

You dont need to have the same skill selecton or weapon or armor set as the next guy! This is the entire point of a game like GWs, where you can choose to play how you wish. You shouldnt feel pressured into maxing your pve oonly skills to play the game.

But that begs the question; where have got this impression from?

Who or what has made you believe you need to max your pve only skills to feel equal to everyone else?

Has a player judged you in some way based on your rank?

Duno about the rest of you, but i decided to give guildwars a try, because, it was fundamentally designed differently to your typical grindy RPG.
My impression was that part of its design strategy, and i believe success, was based on the game design strategy, of placing less emphasis on "earning" titles and "developing" your character.
Really, just because a game has RPG elements, doesn't mean it has to follow the typical MMO/RPG style design at all to be enjoyable.

Yes it is a barrier. You could say that KoaBD is the holy grail of PvE title tracks, since any1 who does PvE would at some point in time consider progressing this title track.
When we make a new character, and choose to advance it, and make it effectively playable, you've made the choice to forgo progression in the KoaBD rank of another one of your characters. The barrier that every1 is talking about is the opportunity cost, or sacrifice, one must make from one characters KoaBD title track, in order to make another character.

And the fact that PvE skills tied to the titles exist reinforces the "barrier", since, given a limited, equivalent play time, a player with one character will have superior combat capeabilities compared to someone who plays multiple characters.
Nobody likes being inferior, even if it were true, that the PvE skills don't provide a significant advantage.

So yes, there is a barrier to the creation of more than one character.

The million dollar question is, Should there be???

Well ill start at the end, has a player judged me on my rank.

No, I dont pug. Go 7 heroes



And no, no its not equal if one person does more dmg.
If it was equal the dmg would be......equal.

And it has nothing to do with being a good or bad player, nor to do with needing them to complete the game.

The problem comes in with that another player has an advantage even though the other person has achieved the exact same titles.


What I did notice is you agree that having non max weapons and armour is a disadvantage in that it means the rest of the team have to cover for you.

How is that not true with skills as well? If having less armour is a disadvantage what about skills that add armour?



And at the people who dont own GW:EN

I dont own CoD4, should I complain I cant use the CoD4 weapons in CoD2?
Its a different game. If they dont own it they dont get access.


Sorry for not quoting btw, was eating lunch. Im sure you can figure out which bits im refering to.

Because, if you haven't notice, retarded "grinding is hard" was beaten to death here and in many other threads. You probably haven't but that's not surprising, really.
I've said many times why grinding isn't hard, thus why his whole argument is retarded. You, of course, like always, failed to realize it.

I dont mean to pick, but that comparison is flawed. Your cant compare the using weapons from CoD4 in CoD2, to whether you own all campaigns and the expansion in GWs.

The games you mentioned are completely different games, which you cant connect.

The campaigns and expanion in in GWs are connected and work alongside one another. You use equipment, and skills from all campaigns inside one another!

So by your logic its unequal that a player can cap or buy a skill in factions, or Nightfall or GWEN which they cant buy or cap in prophercies!

So if a player have prophercies and GWEN and none of the other campaigns, then by your logic its unequal and unfair because they cant use that skill.

Yet we all accept mechanism as being ok and acceptable.

So how can people then turn around and complain whether one person has a maxed pve only skill and another doesnt. What about those who dont own GWEN at all or any of the campaigns which have pve only skills?

Are they unequal or do we just accept thats how it is and say "well go buy the game and you'l get it"?

What if they cant afford it or their not allowed to for some reason!

I understand you need or want to have everything by on the same level and have everything be accessible at the same strength to everyone.

But again this is a hypecritical situation.

1) (as already said) You were all fine with the pre-existing grind ingame, until suddenly it effects oober skills, then all hell breaks loose.

2) We already have a situation where a player can own a skill, which another player may not (i.e they dont own a certain campaign or the expansion). Yet your all ok with that?

If your logic is to stand up, then we need the entire skill system throughout GWs to be redesigned and to add all skills to all campaigns. That way removing any chance of an unequal footing.

A perfect example being "flesh golem" which you can only get in factions, and yet its considered a must for most MM builds. Ive seen numerious times when a person has asked "do you not have FG?" in a PUG. Yet people dont kick up a fuss and demand that flesh golem be available to cap in prophercies or NF do they!

Does that not create inequality for those who dont own that campaign? But we seem fine with that! So why is this idea of one person having a stronger pve only skill any different to that?

Its not!

Its the exact same situation. A person has something you dont, and you dont like it! Yet that mechanism already exists in other situations and we're ok with it.

The only difference is you cant go spend £15/$30 and buy access to it, instead you're expected to put a few hours of bounty hunting in to increase its ability.

There are even pve only skills in GWEN which can only be accessed through Polymock, drawf'n boxing, Norn Tournemants or quests like killing the Griffin.

I hate Polymock and I cant kill the last guy in the Tournament. I also cannot kill the Griffin. That means I cant get summoning pve only skills and the skills from the other two.

I notice no ones bothered that you have to access certain pve only skills playing none pve content like polymock and tournaments and fighting 1v1 creatures.

Surely thats unequal because some people dont like that doing that kind of thing?

Yes because before it was skill>time. I didnt have to put time in just to have my skills do the same dmg as everyone else.

Yes im ok with that. They havent paid to have access to skill x and y. The games are standalone, its how Anet makes its money. So as a system it makes sense.


Time>skill is different to owning the damn game.
GW was always advertised as a game with skill>time. GW was also advertised as something you had to buy to play.

Notice how getting them is skill based over time based? Because if you dont have the skill to get it no matter how many times if you dont improve you wont get it. Even after that it needs rep grind to max it out anyways.

Besides that is pve, there is no player on the other end. Just because its in the form of PvP doesnt mean it is.
There is shrine capping in proph does that mean that mission is PvP?
You are facing AI, its not PvP.


So if you want to remove unlocking pve skills from pve you can start a thread about that. Because thats not what this is about. This is about the grind based titles.

Where did I say grinding itself was hard? I sad making titles account wide makes game easier. Its really simple: game difficulty is one of the basic axis that you can judge the game on.
If you make titles account wide, does that make game harder or stay the same? By all common sense, no. So there is only 1 option left. It's easier. I'm not saying the difficulty axis is orthogonal to all or even any other criteria, so changing any other will probably affect this one. I'm just not supporting any changes that move the marker on this axis to easy. Simple as that.

/signed

I want to play with more then one character.

Where and how was the game advertised as skill based?

You talk like a disgruntled customer who wants their money back due to false advertising. You bought an online game which was subject to constant, unstated, changes! You knew that!

How does flesh golem or any other elite skill require skill to cap?

When I was doing skill hunter it was just a case of check the wiki, find the location, go there and kill the creature. Flesh Golem is on the easiest skills to cap and requires no skill at all to get. You just walk about 2 minutes out of the main city, cross a bridge and kill a very easy boss.

Sorry to contradict you there, but capping elites is just a matter of time not skill!

Aquiring skills, whether it be normal or elite, has never required any skill. You either just walk to a trader and buy them or stand over a dead body and activate sig cap.

So how has there suddenly been a shift in game style surrounding skills, with the addition of pve only skills?

In aqual fact it takes more skill to aquire a pve only skill then a normal or elite skill, because they all require you to complete a quest, mini-game or face a hard boss. The time sink only comes in when you want to get beyond rank 5 and max it out.

So again, you're happy with the current system where you just buy a skill from a trader or cap it from a boss which requires no skill at all. But you have an issue with pve only skills, which actually require skill to attain?

I fully admit maxing them out then takes a time sink, but you dont need them maxed and you should be rank 5 by the time you finish GWEN. At rank 5 they should be just as powerfull as most normal skills and perfectly effective.

Polymock is a perfect example, as are the Norn Tournaments or fighting a Griffin, etc etc of this required skill. Although as I said above, I personally hate polymock and the tournaments and I cant kill that damn Griffin

Again I have to ask, why do you need them maxed out? what challenge in GWEN is that hard (even in HM) where you need a maxed out pve only skill to do it? Im yet to get an actual description of an instance!

One point though...

Alot of people have already complained that GWEN was too easy and it was. Something we didnt expect from "high end content". Surely having access to maxed pve only skills from the start of GWEN would just make that worse?

Surely its a bad thing to have +15 damage against destroyers the instant you enter GWEN. Any early quests or mission which include destroyers would become a walk in the park.

Whos stopping you?

"Where and how was the game advertised as skill based?"

you repeat yourself. must be a feature that you enjoy. repeating.

the game has always been promoted as a SKILL based game.

" (...)You either just walk to a trader and buy them or stand over a dead body and activate sig cap."

Its the case NOW, but some time before you hoped onto the bandwagon with all your grindy friends it DID require skill and timing. -no im not going to explain do your own dam research + youll only "forget" about it and bring up the same REPETITIVE incoherent convictions over and over again.

"So how has there suddenly been a shift in game style surrounding skills, with the addition of pve only skills?"

been addressed and explained before.

"I fully admit maxing them out then takes a time sink, but you dont need them maxed and you should be rank 5 by the time you finish GWEN. At rank 5 they should be just as powerfull as most normal skills and perfectly effective."

R5 is as effective as R8? no its not. But you know that already. yet you present this argument AGAIN.

"Again I have to ask, why do you need them maxed out? what challenge in GWEN is that hard (even in HM) where you need a maxed out pve only skill to do it? Im yet to get an actual description of an instance!"

addressed before using counter examples. you refuse(?) to understand, or maybe you just like repeating the same damm things over and over.

"Surely its a bad thing to have +15 damage against destroyers the instant you enter GWEN. Any early quests or mission which include destroyers would become a walk in the park."

again addressed before. Repeatedly. In any case WHEN exactly does one face destroyers from the start of GWEN? (apart from the first portal when you are not supposed to fight them) destroyers are met just before Rata Sum, by then you should have done a few dungeons anyways no? its NOT about RANK its about PVE SKILLs that take mindless repetitive BORING actions to become truly effective. FYI it is possible to complete GWEN without using a single pve skill, it takes longer, its harder and ultimately completely idiotic that the PLAYER who has grinded these titles on another toon be refused access to the skills unlocked potential on the basis of WHAT? (s)he didn't spend the time required to unlock it? oh wait...THEY DID.

CHARACTER BASED GRIND REWARDING PVE SKILL TITLES ARE STOPPING ME FROM PLAYING MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER.

what part of that do you fail to comprehend? in what way does changing this AFFECT you and your little personal fantasy repetitive rpg world? oh wait. in no way.

i like the idea partly
sure the lucky /unluky tiles
the drunkard the sweet tooth the treasure and wisdom titles.
as those take an insane time to max
but the others definatly not those should remain char based
most require little or no grind

No it doesnt make it easier. It makes it quicker.
Making the game easier would be for example reducing all enemies by 2 levels.

Reducing grind is just that, the grind is reduced. Grind isnt hard or skillful. So removing/reducing it doesnt have an effect on the level of difficulty with the game.



@freekedoutfish

I do have to agree with Sleeper here, you are starting to repeat questions that have been answered before, in some cases even asked by yourself.

Where have I said I want my money back? Im here supporting and discussing a proposed change I think would improve the game.

Exactly. There is a difference between R5 and R10. Someone who uses multiple chars currently is required to spent more time grinding rep to get them maxed. With the change once you have done it once, you dont have to do it again.

You can if you want to thats up to you. But for those of us who dislike grind, who prefer skill>time this would mean we dont have to grind just to be equal to someone else.

But less powerful than if they where R10. Thats what the comparison is to, not any other skills. Its the comparision of R5 to R10. The difference is pretty big.

10-20 secs in skill length in some cases
20-40 extra damage
5-10 seconds of extra conditions

So you cant deffend it with they work just as well. Because they dont.


Again where do you need a max weapon? Max armour? You dont.
That doesnt mean you arent at a disadvantage because of it.

Even though I have done exactly the same achievements as someone else, because I choose to play multiple chars I get put at a disadvantage.


You dont have to display the title.
If someone thinks its to easy they can just not turn it on.
You can just not use a certain skill.

For example I sometimes do missions without 8/8 players. No one is forcing anyone to have to use them if they dont want to. If they do want to use them, they can do that as well.

Nothing is stopping anyone, but there is a disadvantage to doing so. If you change the titles to reward the player for the time they put in rather than the char it removes that disadvantage.

Dude chill! Its not that big a deal is it? are you that completely crippled by pve only skills, that you cannot make a new character or play the game?

No your not!

Your taking this entire thing far too seriously. You are not being prevented from playing the game or making a new char, just because some pve only skills require grnd to max.

You hav 100s of alternative skills to use!

I dont have summoning skills from polymock because I dont like that game. Have I kicked a huge fuss up? no!

Am I disadvantaged because another player can summon an aid to help them but I cant? By your logic yes,

But am I bothered? No!

Your taking this too serously, when you honestly think all this is preventing yourself and others from playing. You dont need this stuff to play. Just do something else instead of spending hours grinding to max skills.

If you dont like doing it, then dont.

Or the system could be changed so both groups are happy.

Those who play with a single char wouldnt be effected.
Those who play with multiple chars wouldnt be at a disadvantage for doing so.

And of course anyone who wants to start a new char without the titles and such can just not display it or just not take a skill.

/signed -- 1,000 times over

It's on the Prophecies game box itself. Under the Eve flap in the upper left corner, it says...

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat. Are you up to the challenge?"

Fair enough.

But you can max the GWEN titles using skill. It all depends how you do it. Whos to say it doesnt take skill to bounty hunt?

It take skill to do the dungeons and quests in NM the first time around to get to rank5. Surely it also takes skill to replay dungeons and quests in HM and to refill your handbook and dungeon books!

You can max GWEN title by replaying dungeons in HM and refilling the books. That take skill (admittadly also time, but so does anything ingame). It takes time to replay missions in campaigns in HM. It takes time to save for armor and weapons.

It takes time to do everything.

But it also takes skill at the same time, if you do it a skillfull way.