Make all grind-based titles account based.

So with your logic every pvp should be character based too?

Max level for LB/SS = 50 thousand!
Max level for GWEN titles = 160 thousand!

Max level for faction = 10 million!

Thats why!

It takes no effort at all to increase GWEN or LB/SS title ranks! It may not take any effort to increase faction either, but it takes a hell of a lot longer and ANET cant justify making us earn 10 million points per character.

But earning a tiny 50k for LB and SS is nothing if you feel the need to max them out, which you dont have to do. Even 160k for GWEN titles isnt unreasonable if you feel the need to max those out too, but you dont have to.

Tell me you appreciate the difference between 10 million - 50 thousand points?

Dan the n00b needs to get over himself already. Hey my new lvl 20 PvP only ele hasn't been in a single AB, but she has r5 luxon. Wow. in one sentence i proved your name is accurate. You are grabbing one facet of the post and trying to turn it into an argument. Long winded post repeating the same thing repetitively do not prove your point they demonstrate narrow minded thinking. So please for everyone here.......STFU already. we heard your rant now just shooosh.

pvp chars are ten a penny and created within 10 minutes with full armor, weapons and full customisable. You can even buy full access to all weapons, all pvp locations, max armor and skills from the online store. No gold required.

pve chars you have to build over a much longer amount of time and from scratch and buy everything they have. No unlocking stuff and just going "oo ill use that". Instead you spend days saving up or days doing missions and quests and exploring.

Thats why pve titles are different and why the achievements of a pve char are different to a pvp.

Fully ready pvp char = 10 minutes.
Fully ready pve char = days, weeks or months.

You could delete a pvp char and have it created again within 10 minutes. You delete a pve char and it wil takes months or years to re-achieve their accomplishments.

How do people not realise that? You cant compare a pvp char a pve and say make titles account based because pvp titles are.

I know we're all dreaming, because while they like to make GUI kind of changes that are helpful, they like to keep us working hard.

/signed (Anything to make people not dread going through GWEN on several characters, right?)

/signed

It would be nice if the GW:EN titles were account based. It is a bit disheartening and boring grinding for points on each character for the sake of armor. Of course, countless players have complained about this already. At this point, I doubt A-net will change these titles to account based.

So basically Razz Thom, you get off on your high horse because someone actually disagrees with the majority *gasp* and are confused as to what the point of a forum is? Diddums.

I suggest both of you re-read this for my opinion on PvP account based titles:

Did you get that? No? Ok i'll quote it again and bold the important part. Ready? Here we go:

Thanks very much.

Ah, PvE titles are char-based, THAT IS why Lucky and Unlucky are acc-based :d
And Friend of L/X, which affect PvE skills too!

And who plays pve chars? Another person?

So much crap in the wall of text below that I'm not even going to answer that.

PVP characters reflect the players ability to quickly create a pvp char and fight against other players.

PVE characters reflect the players ability to role play a character through a storyline from lvl1-lvl20 as an individual. Buying skills, armor and other gear from the bottom-up.

PVP is about the players ability to fight other players. PVE is about the player role playing a character for weeks and months and years at a time against the game.

Yes its the same player, but there is a huge difference between pvp and pve and try to accept that. The development and creation of a pve character takes more time, effort and accomplishment and that is individual to the character which the player controls.

Im not saying pvp chars dont take skilll, they do. But a different skill of playing against another pvp player. PVP chars dont have the same attachment to them, because you can create them in 10 minutes and their ready to go. If you delete them, you can make them again in no time at all.

If you deleted a lvl20 pve char you would be loosing ALOT more then if it was a pvp char.

We need account AND character based titles to reflect that! If we make alot of character based titles account based, it removs that idea of you role playing an individual through a long process. PVE characters then just become as disposable as PVP chars because they would all show the same accomplishments even if they didnt achieve it themselves.

Are you actually saying that PvE titles does not show player skills but PvP does? I can go to AB and run around for 2000 hours or 4000 hours or how long it would take to get max luxon/kurzick title, thats skillful? I agree that ss, lb, norn, asura, ebon and dwarwen titles dont really need skills, but does PvP ones? But how about gmc or legendary guardian or vanquisher, such titles really do need skills. Of course PvP titles need also, but mainly, its just grinding.

There's a word for this suggestion...interesting

no wait what's the word?....Pointless

They're not going to fix it, give up and pretend you care about the titles for another 8-10 months until arenanet puts out gw2 and we can all yell at them for screwing up something else later. (which is guarenteed they will)

1) Its your opinion that Anet screwed titles up. I personally like them and see nothing wrong with them.

2) What is the huge importance with titles? If you all hate them so much and think their a major screw up then why do you want to earn them! Why bother if you get no joy from it or feel so passionate about it.

This is all purely because they have an effect on pve only skills, and not because you all really like collecting titles. None of you actually care about fixing anything to benefit titles, you all just want to max pve only skills easier.

If titles are such a mess, then dont earn them! Do something else!

If im wrong and some people in here are passionate about titles in the "I really like collecting them" sense, then I apologise and I can appreciate and respect your view on this. But if most/all of you are just wanting this to max pve only skills easier and no other reason... then get over it.

Pve only skills are not the be-all and end-all of the game!

There are 2 main views here.

1) If you dont enjoy part x of the game dont play it.

And

2) If part x of the game isnt enjoyable to everyone, try and change it so it is.


Personally I go with view #2.

Getting the non grind skill based titles is fun for me.
Getting the non skill grind based titles is not fun for me.

To me changing the parts I dont like would be an improvement.

the arguement of having a KOBD on a lvl1 is dumb, since it already is possible.

if you max the kurzick and luxon, both lucky and unlucky titles, and say you happen to max a hero title, though it does sound highly impossible, it is plausable. your presearing char will have "KOBD"

does this mean anything? no not really, ive proven this over and over in ToA, on my lvl8 monk with full fow armor displaying r9 hero title. no matter what title, or armor a char has, if its not lvl20, people think your a newb.

You do appreciate that these forums are biased and dont reprosent the actual opinion of 100% of the GWs community?

1) Most people who post in here are likely to be the people who agree, so the those who dont arent being fairly reprosented.
2) Not everyone who plays GWs posts in this forum, so you cant argue "everyone" agrees.

I wish people wouldn't make statements along the lines of "everyone doesnt like it" based on the opinions of threads. I'm speculating here, but I would think this website only reprosents about 5-10% of the entire GWs community.

I completely accept and respect that if you feel something isnt fun, then you personally should ask for it to be changed. Thats great and thats how the game is changed.

But just because yourself and about 10-15 other people agree it needs changed doesnt mean "everyone" does. Your talking about 15 people out of thousands of players.

The unfortunate truth is that titles (for the most part) can be completely avoided. Its only those which unlock armor in GWEN, or when you need 10k faction or so many SS points to progress which have any annoying impact.

But thats the crunch of your issue:

• GWEN you only need rank 5 which is easily accomplished.
• 10k faction is extremely easy to make within half a day (or less) of playing AB.
• The required SS amount to progress is easily attained from quests and a tiny bit of bounty hunting.

As for the impact on pve only skills. I also completely agree those are "nice" to have maxed out and "nice" to play and experiment with. But you dont need them maxed out to progress ingame. Their just a nice little collectable thing to play with if you want and you have 100s of other skills to try.

I'm only on rank 4 Kursack and already I get around 34 seconds of +1 points to my elemental attributes. I'm not going to scough at that if I want to use it.

Yes longer would be nice, but when will I ever use it? Hardly ever!

The only pve only skills you might need in GWEN are alkars acid, the extinguise one and the one to reveal hidden places. All of which are just as effective as lower levels.

Even LB gaze is effective at rank 1. It just happens to hit more targets the more ranks you have.



The other issue I find hard to understand! If a persons enjoys collecting titles, then they shouldn't care if its character based because it gives them more to collect. And/or if there are titles you dislike collecting, then dont collect them.



There really is not arguement to say "Im being forced into collecting certain titles" because the ranks required for GWEN, SS and faction are so low that its very done.

The ranks needed to make pve only skills effective are also very low and you dont need them maxed to do a good job.



I realise it may annoy some people, but this isnt the same level as having limited storage capacity or nerfing skills or some other problem which cant be avoided.

The issue with titles is completely optional and if you dont like it, then dont do it! Others do enjoy it and do like the title system and think its absolutely fine.

Whether thats most people or some I dont know. I havent spoke to EVERYONE ingame to find out and no one can.

The problem fish isnt having to grind its having to grind 8 times. And yeah the needed lvl for armor is 5 in all the gw:en titles. But max is huge and a lot of work. As someone said before, it is the same player playing all of these characters. Why shouldnt the same player actually be rewarded? Try for the "slayer of all" norn title see how long that takes since your bringing up times.

You mentioned pvp vs pve chars and the amount of time spent creating and working them. I could not agree more. All of my chars a pve. I would not change that for the world. I love doing the missions with a new char and trying to beat the game in new ways. But, the grind based items make the game repetitive. I want to be able to log on with my necro, kill stuff in a dungeon and it counts towards an account based title. So that when I decide to buy armor i dont have to go, "crap my ele doesnt have rank 5 gotta go grind some more"

Is it lazy? yes. As far as the SS titles, again its a lot of grind.

lvl 1 with KOBT? That means someone has done some work. They have played often to get their titles, even if it was more than one character.

~the rat~

At no point did I say "everyone doesnt like it" or anything along those lines.

I said not everyone likes it.

My point being if you can take something not everyone enjoys and make it so everyone does enjoy it (or at least more than before) thats an improvement.


The same can be said of all the game. You have been around in other discussions where its been pointed out that since all of the game is optional, using it as a reason to not bother improving something just isnt valid.

Yes if you say this change would make it worse or something like that, im not saying you cant disagree. Just dont pull out something like the above.


Again another argument thats been discussed before.
You dont NEED max armor.
You dont NEED max dmg weapons.
You dont NEED 8 skills.

But it does have an effect on gameplay. Time spent is rewarded. In a game that advertises as skill>time surely you can understand why a lot of people would like it changed.


And again back to my previous post.
If some players dont enjoy them, why not improve them so that more do?

Just saying if you dont enjoy it dont do it again is another poor argument (especially when you consider this is the suggestion forum).

Again, there is no need. Its a game you dont need anything.
But that doesnt change the fact someone who spends time grinding a title has an advantage over those who dont. I point you towards GW being advertised as skill>time again.



Well I think I covered all these points earlier in the post but just to make sure.

The whole game is optional, every single part of it is optional.
And again, this is the suggestion forum. Those of us who dont think its fine are making suggestions on how we feel it could be improved.

Your welcome to disagree and explain why, but telling us not to make suggestions on improving it really defeats the purpose of this.


******

Just a quick edit.

Reading through it I think I might have come across as a bit rude and insulting. I assure you thats not so, just bad choices of wording and not being bothered to go through and change it all

Im not saying your arguments are stupid or anything, just that they cant really be tied down to this topic
1) Because they can be used to cover everything
and
2) Because this is the suggestion forum, where the whole purpose is to suggest changes and improvements.

I agree that it would be good if the grind based titles would somehow be moved to skill.
But sharing them over your characters of an account isn't really a fix, just a way to reduce the grind.
Aside from that, a lvl 1 in Shing Yea being a sunspear grand-marshal from the start doesn't make much sense, as he's hasn't even been to Elona yet.

I have a possible option on making them skill based again, get rid of bounties and repeatable point gains.
You gain the points by 1 time shots for certain accomplishments, beneficial to the faction you do them for.

So sunspear points would be gained form the Istan and Kourna located missions.
With different rewards for normal-experts-masters rewards and HM and NM.
But you could only gain them once, so getting masters after getting normal and experts does not give you more points tan some one who got masters the first time.
As for that mission you get say 100 points, your quality in it only decides how much % of that 100 you gain.
If you already had X% of those 100, they are removed before gaining your new 100.

Light bringer would be gained the same form quests and missions in Vabbi and realm of torment.

This you get points not for grinding or killing, but for advancing in the game and for being skill full enough to get a master's reward.
(masters isn't hard enough, in some missions... what if you could get vanquisher on mission area's?)

This however has the problem of making AB just for kicks, which is very bad, so I do not call it a good solution. But maybe sum1 can turn the idea into something that will be good for GW

But the point is you should get faction for being a good sunspear commander, and Kurzic for being a good friend to the kurzics.
The first 2-3 ranks should be available by small deals of quests or boss killing.
But if you want higher, you'll have to achieve great deeds(skill) not deliver the same supplies 1000 times or scout the same bridge 1000 times!

Dont worry, i wasnt offended. I understand what people saying when they make comments like "I have 8 characters and earning the same titles 8 times isnt fun".

I accept that and in a way, I agree because i have a few new chars now. But I just dislike the idea of making so many titles account based because it detracts from the char being individual in a way.

Also if GWEN titles were account based, we end up with lvl10s running to GWEN and getting armor straight away. While that is their choice and it has no impact on me... it destracts from the idea of working through GWEN to access this stuff.

I can see both sides, but i think too many factors are at play for everyyone to agree. I just think we need to retain an aspect of working for stuff and not giving every away so easily.

making them account based would be nice would elimate the hours stairing at rank 9 sunspear, with a /sigh or lightbringer wondering if i have margonite hunger for the hours needing for that

will it happen,

when tresure chests, do not touch, or any of those start giving 100k and 2 golds

A great /signed

I have no reason to have Luxon /kurzick titles (rank X) on all my chars, even newborns and dont have the gwen "faction" rank.

Will it matter? :

- I dont care if i can kill the entire world of GW with a gwen skill at norn rank 10. My newborn character wont have it. My recently "arrives at gwen" character wont have it too.... I just can buy armor/weapons that are "elite" ones... will my newborn character have money? Main answer will be "no".

- I dont get the max rank as a present, just fought for it... vanquishin' doing missions, replaying the main quests... etc.

- Pvp chars got their titles, that work for its part of the game... our titles doesnt work for that part, as the pve-only skills.

The problem will reside in the "restructuration", as I can have 4k gwen-faction points in a new char, and 50k in my main char. I must have 54k when Anet make the titles account based?

I think that all titles have no reason to be account based but the ones that look like "Factions" ones, "must" be accout based. I think that even if I just get the max rank (50k in my example above).

a great solution to this would be to have grind based titles account based UPON beating the game wit the character u want the titles on. i mean it would make sense to have lvl 10 norn AFTER u beat eotn. that way u save grind in the long run! oh just fyi i dont consider vanquishing task based. that is definitely grind, if u have ever done it.

/very signed

Albeit this would piss off crazy, avid title hunters that play GW for 10 hours a day - it would sure be popular with the "average" player. That player being - the statistic was ( a couple months ago) that the average GW player is IG for 1 hour 10 minutes a day. Albeit that takes into account people who have left the game recently since there's no monthly fee and no way to track it, but that's the average. Taking this "average" - before GW 2 comes out - that player has anywhere from 550 to 760 hours of gameplay to get titles - and that's if title hunting was all they were doing on just one char? C'mon, no way.

But yeah, I seriously doubt they'll change it. Part of their resoning will hopefully be that although titles done in GW on ONE char only count for that char, I hope the benefit/unlock in GW2 will account for the whole account - or ANY char you pick which you create to have the unlock.
...if that makes sense...

I'll just say I dont like the idea :P
Your chars aint part of a group that worked together, so they have to earn the respect of each faction separatly.

Edit by Fallen Hunter: Removed reference to deleted post.

All hail those who make assumptions!

I like attaining titles and I have no issues with how they currently work, and guess what - i'm an average, casual player.

I dont play more then an hour or two a night, and I never have. Yet i've still managed to achieve most things like alot of elite armors, legendary cartog and legendary guardian and so on and so forth.

Kudos for making the most overly assumed thing ingame. Not everyone who likes to spend long periods of time achieveing things are hardcore!!!! A lot of us just accept that some things take a long time to achieve and it should be that way.

Whys do people always jump on "you must be a hardcore player with lots of ingame time to play if you dont want this stuff changed, raghhh" arguement when they dont even know the person?

I got this in the countless exploration threads; I didnt sign the idea of making exploration easier and I got bashed with "well we're not all hardcore players like you, who spend hours playing every night and have lots of time to explore". Not one person bothered to ask how often or long I play.

If they had, they would realised I only play a short time every night and I would much rather be down the pub with my mates socialising them playing a computer game.

Yet I manage this stuff and I have achieved all these things which apparently you have to be "hardcore" to accomplish. There is nothing in this game which cant be done by a casual player. Yes it may take longer, but thats life!

Obviously if someone else has lots more free time, they can spend longer doing this stuff and earning more titles and so on. That doesnt mean they want to, and it doesnt mean a casual player cant do the same.

If you have such a busy life, and very short time for RnR and to unwind in GWs the maybe your playing the wrong game. If you havent the time to earn titles on each character because you have a baby to look after, a 9till5 job to do or homework or exams coming up.... then you need a reality check.

You can't blame Anet just because they havent adjusted the game to better suit a house wife, a mother, or full-time worker or a student! If you want to do something and you want 100% out of it, you need to know whether you can put 100% in and enough hours in to accomplish this stuff.

Im not hardcore and I know there are things I wont accomplish because I dont want to spend 6 hours ingame everday and id much rather be out socialising and I have university work to do.

Do you see me winging because I cant achieve this thing or title because Anet didnt build the game around my social life or my university education? No!

Stop using this hardcore vs casual player arguement! We are all capable of accomplishing the same stuff. It may just take longer for those who dont have enough time to dedicate ingame, but thats reality for you.

Of all the grind-based titles in GW I've contended with, I'd have to say Lightbringer is the most vexing because ...

(i) it takes so long to rank up in it;
(ii) yet it's a really helpful, nay, essential, grind-based rank to have in game; and
(iii) the bounty-givers are all over the place (grrrr.... killing mobs of Margonites just to get to the Margonite bounty-giver is aggravating).

The EotN bounties/rep-grinding doesn't bother me nearly so much and could stay as is, for all I care. At least in EotN, one bounty works for everything you kill.

My suggestion would simply be to change the bounties in Nightfall to be either Lightbringer or Sunspear and scratch the insect/Margonite/plant/Kournan/beast, etc., distinctions.

I'd say let each toon earn his or her own rep, but just make it simpler to get that rep in NF.

Yeah. Factions and Nightfall bounties could be reworked to go exactly as GW:EN, and also add books.

Factions/Lightbringer should be maxable in a year, and the rest in at least month.

Thats all you gotta say if you can't do it and wanna complain about it then perhaps you're playing the wrong game. I agree its hard and grinding but if you don't wanna do it, then you don't have to. Anet gave you that choice. If you don't wanna earn your titles like everyone else then everyone else doesnt want you to earn titles like this...

Perhaps if you wanted another grindy-shitty MMO, you're playing the wrong game?
"Hard" and "grinding" in the same sentence? Just... wow. If you consider grind hard you must be awesome player.
Right, and it doesn't matter that Bob will have better character (better skills) because he grinded so much, just because he has more time.
Ever heard of time > skill in GW? I bet you didn't.

Hahaha, ever heard of something like illusion of choice? If you want R8 Lightbringer, then there is no 'choice' you have to grind.
Or maybe youl'll be so cool and name some none-grindy ways to get to R8 Lightbringer? Can't? What about Norn R10? Sunspear R10? Wow, so many choices!
Aaah, grinding = earning. So I can put my retarded brother in front of the pc, show him lb farm run, leave him for 10h and we're earning the title?
Some people just don't want challenge in their "earnings"

I never understood why Kurzick/Luzon Faction was account based, and Sunspear and GWEN faction wasn't.

/signed

.-. gosh this thread is still alive?
havent we repeated everything like 4-5 times already.

that was pretty much my long winded point!

/notsigned


it'll make the game too easy. and you could get Elite armor early on, when GW:EN was originally just for lvl 20's

Wow, there's more of you.
Seriously, if you think grinding is hard, I have no words.

How does that make it easier?

You do realise elite armor doesnt offer any more protection than standard max armor? Nothing is made easier.

The difference is you dont have to grind out titles you already have to access content you have already achieved access to.

Because Luxon/Kurzick is earned through PvP.

It's also preposterously slow to earn in comparison to the other faction reps. The GWEN titles don't require any grind since the handbook buff, you can easily get to rank 5 in each without ever doing anything but quests and a few dungeons. Sunspear is equally simple, you hit rank 8 by the end of NF just by playing the game. The only real "grind" rep title is LB, which is badly in need of a handbook of its own. If anything, I'd like to see them make L/K as easy to get as Sunspear and the GWEN rep titles and then make it character based. I might actually have a use for a Factions PvE skill for once.

How would making titles like lightbringer and the GWEN titles account based make the game easier? Hm! Lets think about it.

You could create a character in NF and instantly have +damage and +protection against abaddons minions at max ranks.

You could enter GWEN at lvl10-lvl20 and instantly have +damage, +armor, +protection and +energy the minute you enter those regions where they take effect at max ranks!

You could aquire pve only skills from factions, NF or GWEN instantly maxed out. Making your gaming alot easier if you have maxed out oober skills. Some of which you get early in the game in the case of NF.

If that doesnt sound like "making the game easier" then I dont know what does! Yet your arguement will be...

"So what, it makes the game more fun."
"So what, I earnt those ranks and maxed skills on my other characters."

...but never mind the fact it would make the game alot easier in some respects like I mentioned. I would then just have to laugh when people started saying "the game is too easy now... I want it made harder"!

Your proposing that a character who has never set foot in GWEN have a maxed out Drawf, Norn, Asuran or Vanguard title just because your other char has it! Despite the fact, that character will have never even seen an Asuran or an Norn. It kills the idea of role playing if they have access to things from areas they have never been to.

Your suggesting that a character share lightbringer and sunspear titles, despite the fact they might have never been to Elona or even reached the point where you start earning LB points. How does that keep inline with it being role play?

You cannot have access to stuff you aquire from areas, if your character has never even set foot in those campaigns, continents or areas! How does that not register in your head? PVE is role play and if you dont like that, then stick to pvp where all that matters if fighting.

PvE is about a storyline and role playing through their lives and their experiences! They cant have stuff they have never experienced!!!!

As I've already said, there are ways to prevent that.

You can require players to:
- Max the title in at least one character.
- Increase the title to a certain rank in the rest.

Then, you'll HAVE to grind to rank (Lightbringer 8) and (10) for the rest.
Then, something like:
- Reach Lightbringer 3..4.
- Reach Sunspear 8.
- Reach 5 in GW:EN titles.
- Reach 1..3 in the rest of the grind titles (treasure hunter, wisdom, etc)
And done! Your title 'springs' and becames account based.

That way a player that has 10 characters grinds more than a player that has 4, but not enough to make the things easier or boring.

I am one of the people who would prefer the game to be harder.
But grind titles dont make it easier. Chosing to use those skills and titles does.

However making those titles require more grind to get also doesnt make it harder. It just means it takes longer to get those titles. Its still the same level of challenge, just you have to stick with it for longer.

Then dont display the title or use the skills.
The fact is if your playing through a second char you know it all anyways.

You know group x is evil.
You know good guy y is actually going to stab you in the back.
You know that bad guys z are still bad guys.
You know at point A in mission B you will get ambushed.
You know the counter to a boss your char has never seen before.
etc etc

So what do you do when role playing your char? You pretend not to know that.

Same for the skills and titles. Just dont use them till you see fit to do so.

If you want to keep it inline with your suggestion then shared storage has got to go. Because thats an advantage from another char. Currently people who want to RP can ignore that as well.



You could also choose no to use them.

They are all things you can either turn off and not use.

If you want to grind before you let yourself use them, go ahead.
If you dont want to grind again, you can do that as well.

Account-wide grind isn't necessarily more or less grind, just more choice in which character to grind on and no choice as to what character that grind applies to. I think what you want is more along the lines of "scale character grind down by 75%".


By your reasoning, a freshly created PvE character should start out at level 20 with access to all the towns you've ever visited on another character in your account. You've already been there before and you'll get there again either way, so why not just pretend you can't access those towns and endgame areas yet until you see fit as per progress in the plot?

The reason the game doesn't work that way is the same reason character grind titles are not account grind titles. When my ranger makes her way through the missions in Nightfall, the assumption is that she can't just skip to the end because as far as she's concerned (although I might know better) there are no preordained footsteps to follow that were left for her back when the same missions were done earlier on my mesmer. As such, she goes earning her own sunspear ranks, working her way up the ladder instead of starting from the get-go as a legendary spearmarshal. And as she progresses through the Nightfall plot, the slow crawl in power of Never Rampage Alone will reflect that.


True, low level characters can easily access max equipment and loot earned much more easily by higher characters. But unfortunately it's the only practical way Guild Wars has of item transfer between different characters, and seeing as two characters played by different accounts can exchange items it should follow that the mechanism is fair for characters on the same account. Taking out shared storage just means this will be a very impractical process, while the low level characters can just buy cheap max weapons in trade anyway.




Whether you want to admit it or not, grinding is a choice. Obviously you would agree that these skills aren't needed to enjoy the game (otherwise whether to use them or not wouldn't be a choice), and as for others who claim or pretend that these skills are necessary, anyone who remembers playing in a time when these skills didn't even exist is going to know how full of crap they are. It is ultimately up to the player to decide whether having PvE skills at a particular power level is worth spending time grinding up the corresponding title(s). All this argument does is to have some players make a choice so that others won't have to.