Make all grind-based titles account based.

The point is grind doesnt require skill. Even if you can only get 1 point before you wipe, you would slowly get there.
Unlike something skill based in which you need to complete all goals in 1 go.

I wouldnt have a problem with that. If people wanted to play through it in order and only access things when they would of with their first char they could.

Those players that wish to go about it a different way could as well.

Ive made this reply many times, in this thread and others. So im just going to briefly touch on it, you can check back for it if you really want to read it.

Nothing is needed in the game.

Everything is a choice.

You dont have to complete it.
You dont have to do mission x.

So straight away using need and choice as a means for an argument already stumbles into a very grey area thats best to avoid.

As for grind content.

If you couldnt access mission X without first killing 500 drakes, thats content you have to grind to access. You dont need to grind it, because you dont need to access it. But its part of the game as a whole and not accessing it is obviousely not as good as having access.

This means you get rewarded for grinding.


The argument that you dont need to do it doesnt apply. Because nothing ingame is needed, you dont even need to play.


As for grind advantages.

You dont need max weapons.
You dont need max armor.
You dont need 8 skills.

You also dont need pve skills.

But that doesnt stop the fact that the player with a max pve skill has an advantage over a player without.


Just because something isnt needed, doesnt negate the fact that it gives an advantage.

If GW was just another everyday MMO where they reward and enforce time>skill by giving those who grind better weapons and stats then I wouldnt be here having this discussion. Infact I wouldnt be playing at all.

Im here because GW is advertised as skill>time.

Yet slowly more advantages have been introduced for those who grind. Putting players who dont at a disadvantage.


You do not need those advantages. But having advantages...gives you an advantage.

The truth is: GW WAS advertised as skill>time. That is no longer the case.

I have been thinking about this thread and instead of making all titles account based, which will not ever happen. I think players need:

"The ultimate god like supreme star of transference"- what it does is:
TRANSFER 1 title from 1 character to another character on the same account, that does not have that title maxed. It is customized so it can not be sold and is limited to 1 per character. It spawns from a chest in your HoM after you complete all legendary guardian, skill hunter, and vanquisher titles.If you already have done this your chest is there.

This item would passify all the title whine threads, then no one on the forums would have anything to complain about, at least title wise and there may actually be a moment of peace but that is as likely to happen as this posters original post, or my item being put in the game.

From the Guild Wars Prophecies box that is still sold.

From the Guild Wars website

Now while the box is obviousely old and therefore you can argue it no longer applies. The Guild Wars site is updated. It still states GW is skill>time.

Its also mentioned in interviews with members of Anet.


It is still very much advertised as skill>time.

Unfortunately we don't live in that perfect of a world, and I certainly don't think we'll ever be lucky enough for either to happen.

That is an interesting spin on that sentence. lets examine that.

Experience the game that has captivated millions of gamers worldwide. Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that REWARDS player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

It says it rewards skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

Meaning, if I play the game instead of logging in and stand there, I get rewards.

Not all "rewards" are based on that statement. Birthday presents are a prime example that skill being greater has nothing to do with the time, to receive the reward. Also the variable of skill is in question, as in what is considered skill? how much skill do I need to gain rewards? ect.ect. It says nothing of the difference of basic skills vs. expert skills.

That Statement and others like it are quoted by some of this community like it was the 11th commandment or something equally as holy. It is also really left wide open to interpretation, probably for legal reasons.


So, we are know back to a statement on the back of a 2+ almost 3 year old game box, which we both agree is out of date.

Birthday presents and such are just fluff. They dont effect gameplay in the slightest.
Achieving them doesnt require gameplay either.

Skill>time means there are no advantages for time spent. A mini pet is not an advantage. Nor is it part of gameplay. Its really no different from rare weapon skins, fireworks and the event potions and such. Is there to make people go "ooh" and "ahh" at the shiny.

A title on the other hand (and im not refering to being able to display it, which is again an "ohh" "ahh" thing).

Im refering to achieving it. Achieving it is part of gameplay. The same way completing a mission is gameplay.

Currently those who play multiple chars miss out on going for KOABD, unless they have a lot more time of course.

It also means they have to grind even more to stay at the same level as everyone else.

While grind is gameplay, a lot of people dont enjoy it. Those people buy games that advertise skill>time.

As I said, its on the box, its on the site (that is updated and therefore not out of date) and also mentioned in interviews.

Its quoted so often because of how relevant it is.

Its also very clear. "It will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

Dont get me wrong, they have every right to change it. But this is the suggestion forum. And im suggesting that its changed back.

******

Just also noticed this thread, I imagine mostly due to my replies, is getting into the very broad topic of skill>time rather than just focusing on the titles.

So to get it back on topic my summary really is.

Its the player behind all their chars. Grind is the same grind everytime. Thats what grind is. Repeating it all again is stupid and annoying.

That is the EXACT REASON I am against this. I paid for the GAME PLAY.
Not some do it 1 time it is done for good B.S. game. Why does my game play experience need to be tainted by a DIFFERENT character? My warrior is not my monk the GAME PLAY is different, I don't want to loose my paid for GAME PLAY because of a few people how are holding time>skill like it is the holy grail. GW1 will be up for a LOOOOOONG time and I for 1 want the opportunity to play it for a Loooooooong time. I paid for my content and it really pisses me off that other people are crying trying to take it away, and yes you are!!!!! I want EVERY INDIVIDUAL character to be played as if it where being played for the 1st time. in other words I am against this 110%.

/signed some titles should be made account wide.

Lightbringer points and alike I loathe as I will never get over lvl 3 in lightbringer because of the grind. And to have to get it on multiple players is even worse.

no dont do it - grind based titles are there to keep gw even longer. Anet wants its players to think "i must do this for all my characters to truly finish gw"

or you could just play the game for fun.

You'l never get over rank 3 lightbringer? Thats only 1500 points to rank 4!

You can make 650 points alone from farming the The Sulfurous Wastes on one run alone, which can take about 5-10 minutes at the most! Thats around 4k points an hour! Seriously, have you even tried?

Lightbringer points are extremely easy to make (as are sunspear points), you just have to farm them at The Sulfurous Wastes. LB and SS points only start getting frustrating to farm when you choose to aim for higher ranks (far above rank 4) which can only be done in HM.

But even then, your only talking a few weeks for a hour a night to achieve those max levels. I know because I did it and they were maxed out within 2 or 3 weeks of trying. No hardcoreness at all. All casual point farming.

Did you seriously mean rank 3 or was that a miss-type?

I think you need to read http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lightbringer_rank and http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lightbringer_point_farming. You seem a bit confused about exactly how hard LB points are to make!

Comments like that really worry me as to whether people are even trying before they make posts or comments like "attaining this title takes soo much grind". This just proves some players either are confused or arent even trying! Thats like someone saying it takes grind to make 1000 gold before they have even reached a high end area and realised gold drops increase.

The same goes for low ranks in GWEN, which truly dont take long to reach at all from just playing the quests and dungeons and taking bounties. Yes higher ranks take more effort, but thats your choice.

We have resources like the wiki to help make titles easier to farm and increase, and you need to check these things before you throw the book in and start saying "ahhhh it takes too much time and grind" when you obviously havent even tried.

And you still would get it all.

As I said, all the advantages can be turned off and not used.
You can still spend 4 hours a day farming rep if you want.
You still have access to that gameplay.

The difference would be those who dont want to spend ages grinding dont have to yet can still remain at the same level as those who do.

Currently I'm thinking "I will never be able to max the grind titles of the characters I use more before GW2 comes up", unless I play 10 hours a day.

And sorry, I have to sleep. After vanquishing all areas and making all missions, dungeons and quests in normal and hard mode, with some additional kills, people should have all the 6 grind titles title maxed. Yet they will still be far from it, probably just one or two of them.

Grinding? LOL!

GW is a game. It is voluntary. If you want an example of grind read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Having to work every day for barely enough to stay alive. That's grind! You people have no idea what "grind" truly is.

'Grind' is making the very same thing again and again...

Well.. that's not the dictonary entry, but here it has that meaning.

Oh, yes, I do.

According to Webster's Dictionary, "grind" is defined as, among other things, "to rotate the hips in an erotic manner".

I'm totally in favor of that. My warrior does this quite well. The problem is that I cannot get Lightbringer rep that way....

But, seriously, requiring players in a game, which by definition is supposed to be entertaining and fun, to do something that is inherently monotonous and boring for the sole purpose of gaining ranks is bad enough. Forcing them to repeat this totally-mindless-and-not-fun chore (i.e., "grinding" in gaming terms) on multiple characters only adds insult to injury, as the old saying goes, imo.

That said, I can live with the system we have now. I only wish, as I stated somewhere earlier in this thread, that ArenaNet would generalize the bounties in Nightfall the way they are in EotN so players would only need to pick up one bounty per region (Sunspear or Lightbringer) instead of the very annoying "species-specific" system they have now.

Whos forcing anyone to do anything?

Which titles do Anet force you to grind? You could only argue they force you to increase kurzack, luxon and sunsper titles. But the levels needed for those before you can proceed, are very easily attained.

Any ranks above the required ones to proceed ingame are completely optional. Just as other titles are completely optional. You only need to increase GWEN titles if you want armor or weapons and those are optional, but even rank 5 on all titles in GWEN are accomplished by just playing the game.

Aside from those 3 mentioned, no titles are forced upon you and NO titles force you to max them out.

Stop trying to suggest otherwise. Any reason you may have to max them out is your choice and your opinion. Your not forced to max anything ingame.

Again on this.

When everything is optional and nothing is required you have to take force and need in a different manner.

To access some parts of the game, you need to grind.

You dont need to access those parts of the game. But to access them you need to grind.

The fact is thats part of the game that is closed to anyone that doesnt want to grind. Its all well and good saying, "Its your choice, just dont do it". But thats part of the game missed out on.

Thats why people dislike it.

They either grind, which isnt fun.
Or they miss part of the game, which isnt fun.

So a lot of people would prefer no restrictions or restrictions based on fun skillful gameplay. For example having to defeat some tyrant that is killing race x. Once achieved you then get all the rewards from them.

Rather than the current style of
Some tyrant is killing race x. Kill 10,000 of the tyrants men.

Repeating the exact same gameplay over and over isnt fun. Especially when it limits you when compared to someone who has done it.

*sets thread on fire*

This thread is turning into a grind.
Everyone's saying the same thing over and over. :\

lol, what parts ingame require grind (or HUGE grind) from titles to access?

• Armor and weapons in GWEN only needs rank 5 which can be achieved from simply doing quests and dungeons.
  
• Kurzack and luxon needs 10k to proceed in factions, which takes about 30 minutes of playing AB.
  
• Sunspear points to proceed in NF, which are VERY easily attained from doing quests in NF on the noob island.
  
• PVE only skills which you access from a skill trader, as a quest reward or only require a tiny 3k K/L faction to exchange for them! (The ranks only make them more powerfull, they dont stop you attaining them.)

So again what "part" of the game are you stopped from accessing due to titles? Any tiny restrictions are very easily attained as mentioned above and cant be considered a barrier to anything due to that.

Whether you then choose to max those titles if your choice. You only need rank 5 GWEN for armor and weapons NOT MAX. You only need the first rank sunspear to proceed NOT MAX. You only need 10k K/L faction to proceed, NOT MAX. Is Anet forcing you to MAX those titles? No!

You can access the pve only skills easily, as to whether you want them maxed is your choice!

it would be fine if it was different people....but im seeing the same goldfish over and over.

im just waiting to see how long before they will click onto your solution.

what crazy is that some of the people here posted in that thread..its like they forgot everything.

Again, you dont need max pve skills. So you dont need to grind for them.
But to get them at full power you do need to grind for them.
Someone who does grind has an advantage over someone who doesnt.
Therefore to remain at the same level as everyone else you need to grind.

As for the GWEN rep titles, ive completed the game and done 80% of the side quests (still have some vanguard ones to finish), my highest rank is 6. And thats with 2 books worth of faction donated towards it.
My lowest is 3.

So yeah im still going to have to grind to get it up even to the point of accessing everything, nevermind being on an equal footing.


Lets not forget thats on one char.
There is no way in hell im going to get all of them maxed on one char, let alone all of my chars.
Not only is the time required multiplied for each char but the ammount of grind is as well.

Even though the player, the same player behind all their chars, has already done the same ammount of grind as someone with 1 char. They might not even have a single title maxed.

Why do you feel you need to be on equal footing to the next guy? Why does it matter to do you whether they have max pve only skills and you dont?

Tell me what pve only skills you use on a regular basis and when and how, or where you would use them and whether you could do same thing using a regular skill!

Two things which are constantly stated about this game....

1) It about skill and nothing else.
2) It doesnt matter about your level or whether your "better" then the next guy.

Im pretty sure you yourself at some point said that, and you (or others) used the "skill" statement as a reason why titles + pve only skills are bad. But surely if a player is skilled and this game isnt about trying to be better then the next guy, you shouldnt need to max your pve only skills to achieve a feeling of "equality"?

If you dont need to be lvl20 to be skilled ingame, then why do you need pve only skills maxed to be skilled? You seem to be suggesting you're not skilled or your "less skilled" then the person next to you if theirs are more powerfull then yours!

For a player to be disadvantaged ingame, they have to be missing an item or skill or rank which they cant proceed ingame without. You tell me one instance ingame where you cant proceed unless you are using a pve only skill or have it at a certain strength?

Just one!

If you can do that, then I will accept a person can be disadvantaged if they dont have a pve only skill or dont have it at max levels. If not then please shut up about being disadvantaaged. You are perfectly capable of achieveing exactly the same results with a normal or elite skill, as you are using a pve only skill.

There is nothing that a pve only skill can do that a normal/elite skill cant, or similar!

An extra few seconds of healing or an extra bit of damage against destroyers or abaddons minions isnt going to make you better then another player, or are you suggesting it does?

Because if you are, then you can throw the statements about this game being "skill based" out the window. Because by your reasoning this game is about equipment and gear and armor.... and not about skill!

When someone is forming a team, who do they take? The guy with R3 or max rank?

The game advertised skill>time. Thats one of the main reasons I purchased it.
I can do just as well as someone who puts in more time than me.

Its not as if im the only person who doesnt like time>skill.
A lot of online role playing games use it, GW was a fresh break from that. It got a lot of players because of that.
The same goes for other games that use skill>time. You arent penalized for not spending time on something you dont want to do, or dont have the time to do.

If this was a non issue these games wouldnt exist and advertise it right?

GW for example advertised that fact everywhere to get people to buy it. On the box, on the site, in interviews etc. Why would they do that if no one cared?

Tell me where you use a max dmg weapon and if you could do it without max dmg.

Of course you could. But that doesnt mean there isnt a disadvantage to not using the max damage weapon.

If you take 2 players of equal skill, give one max pve skills. Give the other low rank pve skills. Who will do "better"? The one with the max pve skills of course.

You miss the point of skill>time, if you can get an advantage through time or grinding you cant say its countered by the other player being more skillful.
Thats not how it works.

The idea is everyone is on an equal footing, the only difference is the player.

You seem to be confused about what skill means. It doesnt mean how well you do ingame. If that was the case someone with a skill that killed all enemies within aggro would be a skilled player right? Because they do well ingame.

Skill is the measure of the player. Any ingame effects arent factored into skill.
If you take an old and a new player, switch their chars. There should be no difference. Because the skill stays with the player and the char doesnt gain any advantage due to time spent.

Again you arent getting disadvantaged either.
Its not only if you cant do something.

If you again take 2 player of equal skill, give one max armour, give the other 40AL.

Its still possible to complete the game with 40AL. So by your reasoning he isnt at a disadvantage. But of course he is. He has less AL. Thats a disadvantage, just because its still possible doesnt change that fact.

It goes with pve skills as well. You dont need them, the game can be completed without them. But not having them maxed is a disadvantage when compared to someone who has them maxed.



Yes, thats exactly what im suggesting. But im saying its no longer skill based due to the introduction of time>skill features such as pve skills.

Thats why a lot of people dont like the skills linked to titles. Because it broke skill>time. You are now at an advantage if you max the titles when compared to someone else. So time spent on titles gives you an advantage.

Skill is no longer the single critical factor.


The advantages dont have to be game breaking. Its like giving someone a 10 second head start in a race. You can still beat them if you are a lot better.

But take players of equal skill and give one an advantage. Now the one with the advantage wins.

It can even be the case when the player with the advantage is slightly worse then the other player.

Ok that just makes no sense...A-net wants everyone to be equal, they have alot of ppl that work for them to insure it is balanced. So your argument of ppl soud be better than you dosnt work. Balance has been the theme since they started nerfing skills so that there wasnt an unfair advantage over the next guy...remember how easy farming used to be with a 55 or a SS...But if you wern't skilled enough to do it yourself then those ppl that could had an unfair advantage, so they took it away, along with alot of other skills. I dont think that LB/SS or the GW:EN Reputation should be account wide but there are alot of titles that should be. I could start a new char and have a wisdom title in an hour(after a run and about 100k but I could do it). So I would have to say that any title based on consumibles should be account wide...
Like:
Sweet Tooth (cakes and stuff)
Drunkard (drinks and time)
Wisdom (ID Kits and money ;-) )
Lucky/Unlucky (Tickets and going for coffee)

/Signed for the consumible title track

/singed x8
Repeating some of these titles for other characters is redundant, and i think 99.8% of us wont attempt these with other characters.

Isileth you're creating a bigger issue where there isnt one and you didnt answer my question as to where and when you need to pve only skills ingame?

Name me on instance where you actuallly use a pve only skill on a regular basis, where a normal or elite skill wouldnt cut it?

You cant compare using a non-max weapon to using a non-maxed pve skill, because you have a HUGE selection of other normal and elite skills to use instead which are just as effective.

And max weapons drop everywhere, are very easily crafted or bought.

What about those players who don't own GWEN or NF or Factions and have no access to pve only skills? Would you not choose them for your PUG because they dont have a pve only skill you wish them to use because they would disadvantage the team!

How can you talk about skill being important and yet your arguing its ok to judge a player by their rank in a title, and its ok to choose the higher ranked player over the lower one.

Rank in a title means nothing and it doesnt mean your more skilled then someone else. You seem to be under the impression a player with a maxed pve only skill is going to automatically make them better then someone without!

Yet then you say "no you dont need pve only skills". Make your mind up as to what your position is here!

Stop trying to put some over due importance on pve only skills, which doesnt exist just to justify your want for GWEN, LB and SS titles to be account based. There is nothing overly important or special about pve only skills.

They add nothing to the game except make it easier and you yourself have said you dont like the game being easy.

Again I ask, when do you use pve only skills on a regular basis? which mission, quest, dungeon or elite zone do you use them in and does it make a staggering difference if they are not maxed?

As pretty much the whole post was about. You dont need them.
But that doesnt mean suddenly everything is fine and peachy. Because there is still an advantage for those who grind them out over those who dont.

Your missing the point. You are saying not having max skills isnt a disadvantage. When it quite clearly is.

And no, other skills arent as effective (not in all cases anyway). Some PvE skills do things no other skills comes close to replicating. PvE skills are often more effective than other skills. Therefore not having them is a disadvantage.

Thats a different issue. They dont own the game. No matter how they grind they wont get them without buying the game.

No, you are completely missing the points im making.
Im saying someone with a higher rank pve skills is more effective. They have an advantage. Im not saying it indicates skill.

Thats the problem. Skill should be the defining critical factor, not time.

Im saying 2 equal players, one with max pve skills, one without. The one with is going to be better or more effective or more powerful. In such an argument you cant say, well the person without max could be the better player. Because it can just as easily be the other way round.

You can only base skill>time when both players are on an equal footing.

Again, this is getting slightly annoying now. Im making the same points over and over.

You do not need them. You do not need anything. The game can be completed with non max weapons, non max armour, non max skills, less than 8 skills etc etc.

However you are at a disadvantage if you play that way compared to someone who doesnt.

Thats the problem. A player who grinds out titles has an advantage over someone who doesnt.

As I said, there is no need for them. That doesnt change the fact there is a disadvantage to not having them. It goes completely against skill>time. Thats why I have problem with them.

I never said anything about "maxxing" titles out. That is something you read into my post that wasn't there. Stop trying to suggest otherwise.

But, yes, when a Lightbringer rank of 3 makes you more powerful and effective than a Lightbringer rank of 1, that is a game mechanic that forces players to grind for rep in order to improve their effectiveness. A decent Lightbringer rep in Nightfall is as necessary, in practical terms, as Luxon/Kurzik reps are in Factions, but just handled in an inferior way.

EotN improved on the Nightfall rep system by making it easier to get area-wide bounties, but Factions handled rep the best.

With most in-game mechanics, such as having to buy better-grade armor, etc., the mechanic works OK and is not boring. Grinding for rep, however, is boring. The rep you had to gain in Factions for Luxon/Kurzick was handled better, imo, because you could obtain it easily by completing quests, which are fun to do, and that rep is also shared by other characters on that account. It was a much better system for rep.

As for the other titles (Explorer, etc.), I don't much care about them. I only find it frustrating having to re-grind (i.e., on multiple characters) for titles/ranks that are necessary in order to play the game effectively.

Then I will ask again; name an instance ingame when your regularly use pve only skills to do a quest, mission, dungeon or alike which cannot be done without a pve only skill?

And again its a choice to use those skills! If you dont use pve only skills you can still do the exact same stuff . You are crippled in any way, shape or form if you dont use pve only skills.

Yes pve only skills may make killing this creature or that boss easier... but so what? are you really that vain you need to be able to kill that same boss as easily ass the other guy?

There is nothing ingame which requirs pve only skills to complete! Thats my entire point. So what if another player can do that same thing a little bit easier, when you can still do it using normal skills.

If you told me one instance where you could not proceed ingame without the use of pve only game, I would completely sign this thread. But you cant! There are none!

This is almost as bad as when people were saying they couldnt do elite zones like FOW and UW without the use of maxed pve only skills. You have to ask "how did they manage before PVE only skills existed then?" because they did! We managed longed before pve only skills were added and I have hardly ever used them and I have quite a few at highish levels.

So you wouldnt accept a player in the ROT if they were LB rank 1? This whole issue about pve only skills + ranks only exists because of players who judge others and have to be "better" or "equal" to the next guy. If players werent so elite and didnt judge you on ranks in pve then this problem wouldnt exist.

Does that make it acceptable? no and it shouldnt be an issue. Players only feel forced into increaseing ranks to satisfy this feeling of "i wont get into a pug unless im higher rank, arghh". A feeling which isnt caused by Anet, its caused by eliteist players who love themselves.

Stop blaming Anet because they didnt cause this attitude. Players like yourself and others did by puttng far too much enforcis on pve only skills and ranks and making them seem more important then they are.

And I will say, once again, thats not the point.

You do not need them

That doesnt change the fact there is an advantage for having them.
Thats the point.

Again, not the point. I have stated quite clearly you are able to do everything without them, just as you can without max weapons or max armor.

But there is a disadvantage to the player without them compared to the player with them. Time has given them an advantage.

Therefore skill>time has been broken.

You seem to be missing the point of skill>time.
If it wasnt such an issue would people support it so much? Would games use it as one of the main features they advertise?

Its a core priniciple of the game (or was in this case), removing it has annoyed a lot of players who came for the skill>time.

I really dont want to keep covering this same point over and over again with you.

That is not the point. You do not need them.
That doesnt change the fact that skill>time has been broken and there is now an advantage to the player who grinds the titles.

That is the point. That is the problem.

Isileth this is exactly the point. You dont need pve only skills, so stop making a big deal about how you increase their power! If you and others dont want to max a title to increase their strength, then DONT. No one is forcing you or making you!

Do you actually use them? ever? Answer me!

The same question to everyone else who says they want pve only skills maxed out instantly. Do you ever use them?

You don't even need 8 skills most of the time. Let's make skillbar grind-based ;d

I lol'd. Nice e-drama right there.

Ursan Blessing, ftw. I also use Aura of Holy Might, Whirlwind Attack, Sunspear Rebirth Signet, several other Norn skills, a few Asuran, and quite often: deldrimor skills. If I had a Paragon I'd use "There's Nothing To Fear!"

So, yes, I do use them.

This is the same old "holy grail" logic, as this quote explains.

The game is skill over time. If you were only lb1 and killing Abbadon you would need more skill. So your argument is BUNK. time = easier= less skill.

Now to address the question. The COMMUNITY not the GAME makes this choice. If the community finds you less worthy because you are a lower level/rank than what they want to play with, then that is the communities fault not the game. not the titles. not the rank emote. This has been ingrained into the community by (as an example) tanking assassins, wammos with frenzy+heal sig. We as a community have had it up to our eyeballs with "I g0+z [email protected] L33+ 5k!llz, Cause 5k!llz > +1m3". which = you wasted my time.

This entire thread needs shut down.

This is the ultimate flogging of the deadest horse.

It is NOT gonna change. You can get all the guru people behind this and it will change NOTHING.

L2P = learn to play= time. The game does not require it, but to play with the big kids, we do.

You dont need to do the last 8 missions of each campaign.
But if they got locked until you grinded 10,000 points in some title on each char you can see why there would be problems.
If max dmg weapons only dropped after you killed the same foe 500 times.
If you only had 7 skills till you maxed out title X.

Its not about how much it effects the game, rather that it does effect the game.

Funny, with Proph and Factions, there were no grind-based skills and people could say "don't dring up retarded grind-based skills idea, it is NOT going to change"
Yet it did. For worse. How about change back for the better?

Earning 10k K/L faction which takes 30 minutes in AB effects the game? lol!

Earning rank 1 sunspear effects the game? lol!

Earning rank 5 in GWEN effects the game? lol!

Those are not "locked" as you put it. Those are stupidly easy amounts to earn to then proceed. The last two are even more laughable because those are done by just playing the quests and missions and dungeons!

This has nothing to do with wanting titles account based for "the better of the game", its about you and others wanting pve only skills maxed out the instant you get them. Its about wanting instant access to GWEN armor and weapons.

Again I say.... there is nothing important about pve only skills. Yes they make your life a TINY bit easier by letting you more damage or heal more or degen longer, etc etc etc.

But if you want them, then use them. You dont need them maxed out! If you want them maxed out and dont want to earn the title each time.... use one of the countless other skills instead.

You are not at any disadvantage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Get this into your head! For you to say "I am disadvantaged when playing the game" you would have to be unable to be unable to earn the same rank as the guy next to you.

Your are not unable to do anything in this game! If player A can do it, then you can do it!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disadvantaged

"Deprived of some of the basic necessities or advantages of life, such as adequate housing, medical care, or educational facilities. "

You have the basic necessities in the form of countless skills, max armor and max weapons just as Player A does! PVE only skills are not a basic necessity because you DONT need them to proceed ingame.

I know fine well your going to argue a PVE only skill is a "advantage of life" but their not. You know why? Because your have tha facilities at hand to gain that advantage if you put the work in and increase your rank.

Anet is not making it hard to increase those rank, its actually VERY, VERY easy! Or at the least, you are just as capable of increasing ranks as the guy next to you. For you to argue your disadvantaged you have to prove your are incapable of increasing title ranks!

Are you? Is it impossible for you to put the same time and effort into increasing title ranks as the guy next to you? No your not!!!

You might work longer hours and have less time to play, but that doesnt mean you can't earn the same rank. It would just take longer to do. But your still capable of doing it.

You are NOT disadvantaged to the person next to you who has a more powerfull PVE only skill, because your are just as capable of increasing your title rank as they were!

Understand that!

Even if you have 8 players and you want your pve only skills maxed out on them all; that makes NO difference. You are not being stopped from increasing ranks on all your characters by Anet at all.

If Player A has rank 10 luxon and you have rank 1 luxon, why cant you increase yourself to rank 10? Whats stopping you? whats the disadvantage your face with to stop you doing that?

The disadvantage ISNT in whether player A has a rank above you. The disadvantage is in whether you are capable of gaining the same rank as them using the same methods.

And NOTHING ingame is stopping you from doing that.

I've played the same quests and dungeons and locations as you have. I have rank 8-9 on most GWEN titles, I have rank 4 kurzack, I have max rank SS and LB. I dont play endless hours every night and it took me a while to get those.

Are you incapable of putting that same time and effort in? No your not! You could do that just as I did. So you are NOT disadvantaged at all.

A disadvantaged person is someone in a wheelchair who cant access a building because it only has stairs.

A disadvantaged person is someone who cant read and needs to read the train timetable to get home.

A disadvantaged person is someone who doesnt have the same facilities as the guy next to them, or the ability to access those facilities or earn the same stuff as them.

Unless you tell me that you personally have a physical or mental disability which effects your ability to earn title ranks ingame, then you are NOT disadvantaged.

Even if you have more characters then Player A, means nothing. You chose to create more then one character and Anet didnt force you! Thats like someone with 2 kids arguing they should get more child support then someone with 1 child because their disadvantaged. Even though their just as capable of going out and earnin a wage.



And as to whether PVE only skills + titles effects the game is an opinion, and not a proven fact. Its a fact how ever that you are NOT disadvantaged because you can earn the same ranks as player A because you have access to the same facilities as they do. Player A also has the ability to create more then one character, but that is purely choice. If they did create more characters, it doesnt diminish their access to facilities to increase those same ranks.

It's a game people. If you don't want to do it, no one is forcing you. Just click on that <X> in the top right corner. Grind ended.


and, welcome to the Freakedoutfish vs. Isileth thread.

Is doing 20 damage instead of 10 damage different? Yes.
It has an effect on the game.

Dont try and label me without knowing me. I dont own a single "elite" armor or weapon. All my armors are the standard max AL, all my weapons are just standard cheap fully functional weapons.

I could not care less about looking prettier or cooler or whatever reason people want them for.
If others do, great for them. Im not going to stop them.
But im here for the gameplay not some dress up game.

And that right there is the problem. There is suddenly a difference between the player who has them and the player who doesnt.

In that case why do some people not like WoW item system?
You can farm until you get the same weapon as someone else right? So that means its all ok then.

There is a reason some people dont like that system. Perhaps you dont find it a problem, im not suggesting you have to.
But one of the main reasons I joined GW was because it didnt use this system. Infact it used skill>time as one of its features they splashed about on the box, the site and interviews.
So forgive me for not liking the change.

2 men are racing.
Both run the exact same speed under normal conditions.
However the first man is running with a bag of sand on his back.

Is that man not at a disadvantage?
Disadvantage does not just mean lacking the basic necessities. Its all well and good picking out a single deffenition from a page full of them. But only when you realise it has more than one meaning.

Hell a person with a broken wrist is "disadvantaged".
A golfer playing with a handicap is "disadvantaged".

Thats the meaning being used here.

Again not true at all.

PvE skills are an advantage.
Having them is an advantage.

Having to spend x time maxing them is not skill>time.
Its Time>skill. A person who has spent time on them has an advantage.


Yeah your missing the point.

What you just described is Time>skill.

Thats exactly why im against all this sort of stuff. Because I support Skill>time.

Really I cant sum it up much better than that. They are 2 completely opposite systems, I support one. I dislike the other.

So perhaps we each prefer a different system? I dont know.
But if thats so I think we are reaching a dead end on this discussion.
If you support it for another reason however, please do tell.

[quote=freekedoutfish[
A disadvantaged person is someone in a wheelchair who cant access a building because it only has stairs.

A disadvantaged person is someone who cant read and needs to read the train timetable to get home.

A disadvantaged person is someone who doesnt have the same facilities as the guy next to them, or the ability to access those facilities or earn the same stuff as them.

Unless you tell me that you personally have a physical or mental disability which effects your ability to earn title ranks ingame, then you are NOT disadvantaged.
[/quote]

Again you are picking out defenitions of disadvantaged.
You need to look at it in the context we are using. Thats a game and the debate of skill>time.

In this disadvantaged is when another player gets an advantage due to time spent not player skill.

Thats the definition we are using.

Not sure your point there.
Because you do get more child support the more children you have....


No thats a fact.

Lets work through it shall we? (ill assume the skill does damage for ease here)
Does having a max pve skill do more dmg than a non maxed version of the skill? Yes
Does doing more damage to something means it takes more damage? Yes
Does taking more damage mean you have less health? Yes
Does heaving less health mean you die quicker? Yes
Does killing your enemies quicker effect the game? Yes


As for being able to do the same thing with a normal skill or non maxed pve skill.

Tell me how without R10 Asura you can summon a lvl 20 Ruby Djinn that lasts for 60 seconds.

Its not possible. (using only 1 skill anyways)

Tell me how a non R10 Great Dwarf Weapon does +20 damage with a 40% chance to knockdown.

Again, not possible. (with 1 skill)


***edit***

The whole "need"/"force" thing has been answered far to many times for it to be funny anymore.
Check the last few pages and you will see it several times.