Make all grind-based titles account based.

You explain to me how you have a bag of sand on your back when playing GWs which is preventing you from earning the same ranks as Player A?

Obviously im talking metapholicaly (and no doubt I spelt that wrong)!

You are not disadvantaged because your are just as capable of earning those same ranks as the bloke who has a higher rank then you. Unless you're not and if not, explain how!

Your definition is completely flawed because it takes into assumption, that you as a player are unable to achieve the same ranks. I ask again, are you unable to achieve the same ranks in a title if you put the same time and effort in?

If not, why not!

Not the point I was making. The bag of sand isnt stopping you from getting the ranks, the bag of sand is there because you havent gotten the ranks yet.

Now in a game that uses time>skill thats what you expect.
But GW is (or at least was) skill>time.

The problem is not getting the ranks. Its that if you dont get them you are at a disadvantage.

Because that isnt skill>time. Thats time>skill.

As I said, its not something stopping you getting the ranks. Its that fact that if you dont get the ranks you have the disadvantage.

Nothing to do with actually getting the ranks.


That misunderstanding was probably my fault for expanding the discussion as I did.

I dont want to drag this out, because we've already done that to high heaven.

But IMO the issue is whether or not you can achieve the same rank as player A, not whether he has a more powerfull skill.

The disadvantage comes in whether you are able to achieve the same rank as him, and quite simply there is NO reason you shouldnt be able to.

He has the same resources you do and he has access to everything you do. There is NO reason you cant get the same rank and have your pve only skill be the same strength.

Thats my opinion and thats my definition of what disadvantage is ingame.

As I said, if you can present me with a good reason why you and others are unable to achieve the same ranks, then I will submit my opinion. But I dont see how you can.

The roblem here is not the ranks by themselves, but the ranks for those who acquired many character slots and like to play with all 10 professions.

1,2,3... there is no problem there.

When you play with 10 characters, grind halts your gameplay and fun.

In that case I dont think we will have your support.
Your opinion on what counts as a disadvantage is obviousely different from mine.

You support (at least in part) time>skill gameplay. Where grind or time spent is rewarded with better weapons, stats, skills etc.
I support skill>time. Where everyone has the same stats, weapons etc and only player skill counts.

We might as well argue which fruit we think is better. Its all personal choice to which gameplay you prefer.

Take this situation. You want to complete a task, but the only way you will be able to complete it is with a PUG. But the PUG's won't take anyone who doesn't have a grind title up to a specific rank. Would this be a case where you are forced to have the title ?

However to make this relevant I also need to ask is how often this is happening. So far I've only seen one PUG requiring this in PvE, and that group only wanted rank 5 in the Norn title for an UW Ursanway group. Though I am worried that the average required rank will increase over time, like what has happened with HA*.

But at least with HA the title they wanted was only obtainable in what they wanted you for, meaning that it showed relevant experiance.

*I haven't even stepped into the HA outpost since the NF release, so I don't know if this is still going on.

No, because no one is forcing you to do this quest -> 'logic', eh?

I dont support (as you have all chosen to call it) time>skill at all. I just dont see an issue with there being atleast a few small things, which we have to work for ingame. 95% of the content is just given to us on a silver platter.

I have no desure to max all my pve only skills, so it doesnt really bother me. I dont put any huge importance on them because ive only ever use the odd 1 or 2 in GWEN and thats it.

But I dont think there is anything wrong with Anet asking us to actually pull our thumbs out and work for some stuff, since most is so easily attained. Besides ive started playing the free beta of Mythos and its actually quite fun and original. Like a (actual) fun version of WoW, so I dont really care if Anet does make huge changes. Its not likeing to gain my interest since ive got extremely bored of GWs now.

Work, Grind, Effort, Challenge.....some words that come to mind during these topics. The fastest ways to max the pve-skill-linked titles invole much grind. When I was maxing the Sunspear title, I did lots of wurm runs. I tossed the henches into mobs and let them do all the work while I did something less boring and stupid. Would you consider that work? That depends on the persons definition of "work" Would you consider it grinding? Yes....I did the same thing over and over again. Did I put any effort into it? Of course not, it was absolutely easy.....that doesn't mean it was fun or fast though. It definitely wasn't a challenge....very brain-dead stuff. Please tell me where work part comes in. The flaw in these titles is that the fastest way to max them involves tons of grind. If you decide to get your points "normally as you progress", then it'll be a very looooong time before you get at least 1 maxed.

lol what? Why do you think they're pve-ONLY? Because some of them are pretty much overpowered. Using pve skills with maxed titles doesn't make you a better player, but it certainly can make you more effective and useful to the team. For a small example.....tell me what normal skill is similar to Great Dwarf Weapon....do you realize how insane it'd be if that was allowed in pvp? Whether you like it or not, it's a fact......a person with maxed pve-skill titles IS more useful to the team....they can do things a person without pve-skills can't. You better take another look at every pve-skill before you attempt to dis them.

That's very true. My main char is the only one that has the Sunspear/all EotN rep titles maxed....I did it specifically for the skills. Even if I couldn't display the titles i'd do it......why? Because this game revolves entierly around your skillbar, and how well you use it. To me, the more skills I can use, the more fun i'll have with the game, because it means more variety and builds to use.

I think the whole process of maxing out titles is flawed....the few true challenges in the game give you little to no points at all, yet all the brain-dead grind will help you max the titles much faster.....this was probably intentional though....either way I think it's stupid.

This game would be more interesting if there wasn't a fat pile of skills that need buffs.

Well thats the reason I said in part. I have no idea how you feel about the other aspects of it. But you are supporting a time>skill mechanic over a skill>time mechanic.

It also shouldnt be work playing a game. Its meant to be fun.
No one is asking for everything to be given. Im more than happy to have to complete skill based challenges. But I dont want to repeat the same grind over and over.

God, stop the senseless arguing. You can't make grind titles account based otherwise all the damn characters you have would get the KoaBD title. These titles aren't hard to get, so just get it again. It took me two days to get Max Sunspear. 7,500 - 50,000. If I can do it, your lazy ass can too. You're putting the people's time who HAVE got the title max twice. It's not fair for you to spend two days maxing out a title, and they've spent four days maxing out a title so that their Paragon and Monk can experience the same effects. You can't get time back, I hope you know. You only grow older, so quit trying to be lazy.

I have rank 8 Norn because I played the game, and turned in some books and poof, my title went soaring up. Wow, that was difficult. Man, I think my hand nearly broke a sweat. Give me a break, someone lock this topic already.

It's at 37 pages, if it was going to be implimented, I'm sure it would have been by now!

Your talking about maybe 5% of the entire game which your being asked to "work for". The rest of basically given to you! A 5% which doesnt have any huge impact on your gaming.

And Please stop making comments like "I dont want to repeat the same grind over and over" because that a very vague statement and that could include missions and quests and exploration and every aspect of the game. And if you dont like repeating anything at all, then your playing the wrong kind of game.

You also dont seem to appreciate that some people find it fun to work for titles and ranks. What you might not concider fun, someone else does. Like ive said before, you cant judge what the majority think by looking at this thread because its only a tiny % of the entire GWs community who use this website.

Anyway im unsubscribing now, so enjoy.

Ok a few things here.

1) No, its not easy or fast to get. At the most effective spot (highest points per hour) it would take 9 hours of solid, non stop grind to max.

Thats 1 title.
On 1 char.

2) How do the other players lose out? They still have the title.

Now 2 things could have happened.

A) They enjoyed getting the title, well no loss then. They had fun and still have the title.

B) They didnt enjoy getting the title. Why just because they didnt enjoy it should it not be changed so in future it is more enjoyable?

Shall we only use old medicine because its not fair on the people who took it before the new stuff came out?


3) Its not lazy, if part X of the game is boring. Is it not a good idea to try and make it more enjoyable?

Well right now, more than a few people dislike the huge title grind just to be at the same level as others. It goes completely against what the game originally advertised.
So those people would like to see it changed.



As for your GW:EN ranks. I currently have my highest at R6. My lowest is R3.

I have done all quests (apart from some Vanguard quests hence the reason its at R3). I handed in 2 full books giving me my R6.

So im going to be very generous and say you have R6 for all after completing the GW:EN missions.

That leaves 120,000 points left.

For the Norn title you can get just under 6k every 30 mins. So 12k an hour.
Thats 10 hours of pure grind to max.

40 hours for all 4 titles.


For just 4 titles. For 1 character.

But we arent talking skill based titles. The grind is the same across every single character.


To max them on multiple characters takes a serious investment of time. And not the fun kind. Those figures are based on the most effective pure farming.

Yet if you dont, you end up weaker than someone who has. That goes completely against skill>time which GW advertised.


***edit***

Which is still 5% of the game. If it can be changed in a way in which more people enjoy it, is that not a good thing?

Thats hardly the same. The title grind involves repeating the exact same thing over and over.
The rest of the game is completely different.
Each mission is different.
Quests vary in content and area.
Exploration is always different.

No I fully appreciate that. I never said everyone hates it.
I said some do, and if it can be changed so more enjoy it than currently then thats great.

You also cant make changes based on the whole community. Because there just isnt a way to get everyones opinions.
So the only way we have to look at a small sample is forums like this.
Of course its not perfectly accurate and doesnt represent the community as a whole. But its a darn sight better than nothing.

The fact that this crops up in multiple threads on multiple forums shows however, that it is an issue.

I'm half and half on this one. I hate grinding and it would be nice to only do it once and have it for all characters. But then it would be so much easier for all characters to get Kind of a Big Deal and such. However, Lucky, Unlucky, Skillz, etc. are all account-based, so why not Spearmarshal and Lightbringer, as well as GWEN rep? The ones that shouldn't be account-based are the Protector, Guardian, Vanquishing, and Skill Hunter titles.

Skill > Time is a flawed metaphor of this entire game. For you cannot ever gain skill without time involved. From the moment you entered GW to present you have been spending more TIME to gain skill than anything else. You cannot do anything without using TIME to do it. So, no matter how many skilled games you play you'll always have TIME in front of the skill and or skills. So, not such thing as Skill > Time. Just totally illogical can't be done. It would be like saying the chicken came before the egg.

Thats why time and skill arent taken to have the same meaning they normally do.

Skill refers to anything playerside. Be it experience, knowledge, tactics whatever,

Time refers to anything ingame. Eq, stats, skills etc.

The best way to tell if a game is skill>time or not is to take 2 players.
1 new, 1 old.
Switch their chars, nothing should change. Because there are no ingame advantages.


In addition to that anything that is gained through the main storyline isnt really counted. This allows reasonable level and weapon progression such as the way GW does it for example. But with no grind everyone has the same eq, stats etc.
Anything that requires extra time spent, especially grind or farming is considered time however.

This isn't something you can blame on the grind system. The game itself doesn't impose situations like these on you (with a few exceptions like the mandatory sunspear grind for NF characters which I think is pointless), otherwise we'd have missions/dungeons/quests that would give us messages up front saying "sorry, you must be Slayer of Heroes to proceed." These scenarios are to blame on the attitudes of players themselves that "higher rank in pve title skill = more useful player". Sound familiar?

QFT. By most people's reasoning, any situation involving "average guy" Player A playing for 2 hours and getting farther in the game than "uberskillz" player B playing for 2 minutes would be evidence of "time > skill". Expecting Anet to fix issues like this is a joke.

Hey Isileth...F-ING DEAL WITH IT. If I maxed out two Sunspear titles on two characters for the benefits, and your happy ass does it one time to benefit all your characters, I hardly find that fair. That 9+ hours I just spent grinding to get that title just went to waste. Are you saying the sacrifice of my 9+ hours is a worthy cause for you to be a lazy S.O.B.? I think not.

Someone please close this thread, this idea shouldn't happen, it's unfair. It's just become a flame war between gamers who enjoy playing the game and lazy people who just want an easier way to get everything done.

I go max out the four GW:EN Reputation titles. I max out Sunspear and Lightbringer. Hey look, all my level 1's have Kind of a Big Deal! WOOOO!

And if you bring up the fact that PvP titles are account base...well, you

FAIL.

PvP titles take 100x as long to max out than a PvE title. I play Random Arenas more than I do PvE. I have 407 Gladiator points. No where near max. I have 100% of Cantha, Elona, Protector of all three campaigns, Pioneer of the North, Rank 8 Norn, rank 4 Asura, Rank 6 Dwarf, rank 5 Vanguard, Rank 3 Lightbringer, max Sunspear, Legendary Skill Hunter. My point? Well, if you don't see it, then you need to buy a brain off eBay. End debate.

/closethread

kthx.

As I said, time doesnt actually refer to time played. It refers to an advantage gained ingame through grind or a time based reward.
Rather than only player skill counting, it now matters how many and what advantages you have ingame.


***edit***

1) There is no need for that, if you disagree thats fine. You are welcome to your opinion. But there is no reason to start heading down that road.

2) How do you lose out? Do you lose a title?

3) If indeed that is "time wasted" why was it wasted and not enjoyable or fun?

Just because you went through it when it wasnt fun everyone else should have to?

4) Its not lazy, I dont enjoy this part of the game. I would like it to be enjoyable.

Thats nothing to do with lazyness, thats me wanting to enjoy more of the game.

Ok I dont see it as unfair but lets skip right past that.
How would this change make it any easier? You would still have to complete exactly the same as everyone else to get any of the titles.

How exactly is that a problem?
Titles are there for the players. It shows what the player has done.
Do you think your char secretly goes and does titles when you log off? Of course not. Everything your char does, is done by the player.

And so what if someone else has KOABD?
To have it they must have earned it. They have completed enough titles to get it.
This does not reduce the number of titles required or give a free title in any way.

All titles must still be completed.

2) If you look at my example, here's how it goes. You spend 10 hours grinding. You have a max title. (This is before this idea would take place.) I spend 10 hours maxing out that same title. I want it for another character. I spend another 10 hours maxing it out. This idea takes place. I just lost 10 hours of work, even though all my characters benefit, you had 10 extra hours to do other stuff. You could spend that 10 hours maxing out another title, while I was left to max out the same title for the benefits of another character.

3) When I maxed out my Sunspear title, I didn't have fun. I am almost willing to redo it again on a Paragon as the skills it provides are extremely helpful and max Sunspear would boost it up. If I do, and this idea comes into play, I will be mad. Despite that now my Assassin has Max Sunspear, I just wasted a chunk of my life getting a title I could have waited for since my Warrior already had it.

4) It is lazy. I didn't like it either, but I went ahead and did it for the benefits of my character and getting the People Know Me title. Not all things are fun or fair in life. Deal with it.


It wouldn't make it easier in a sense unless they increased the amount each rank of the title requires. If that's the case, my max Sunspear title now requires even more output from me after I was already satisified with a job well done. It's like being demoted in a job. Instead of being paid $20 an hour, you get bumped down to minimum wage. That would just suck. However, it does make it easier to obtain KoaBD. That's what I don't like.

The KoaBD title is to show the effort you put into developing that SINGLE character. Not developing your account. When a person has 'My Guild Hall Smells of Rich Mahogany,' I do expect that all his characters have the same title, just that one. Perhaps another that's close, but typically on average these people don't have doubles of that that title. That's an accomplishment. If you make the accomplishment easier, it's not much of an accomplishment if you're walking around with 'I'm Very Important' on a level 1 Ranger you made who's still training to get out of Shing Jea.

Exactly as I said. They earned it. But it's not really much of an accomplishment if all your characters share the same pride. The character with 50,000,000 experience versus the character with 2,800 experience but they both have the same title. Sure, it's a bragging right, but it wouldn't bring the same amount of 'WOW!'ness factor as it does now. I take screenshots when I see someone with 'God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals' title. If this were to happen, I doubt I'd care since I'd see one every couple minutes.

PvE aspects like plot progress, max armor, new skill trainer access, farming areas, endgame greens, etc. can all be considered as rewards based on time spent on "grinding" through other unrelated parts of the game. And again, a semi-skilled player who invests considerable time into playing would far surpass the skilled person who puts in his 2 minutes and expects to get somewhere good for it. Is that not the same scenario of "time > skill"?

Not good enough? Let me try this then:
Case study! Consider Player A with Pain Inverter backed by a rank 8 Asura title and months/years of experience, versus Player B playing the game on a friend's account for the first time with a Pain Inverter rank 2. But to really isolate the "in-game skill" element, let's also make sure Player B even though new to the game is at par with Player A when it comes to interface familiarity, or "knowing what button does what". Now let's make them switch characters and then both fight the Great Destroyer with all other factors held constant.

Now they go in, and while it takes a bit longer Player A still has no trouble taking down the Great Destroyer with a rank 2 Pain Inverter (let's face it: even at rank 1 that thing is so strong it's almost unfair). Player B goes in with a high power rank 8 version, yet he's going to get hammered over and over again with party wipes. Why? Because he's using it on the adjacent Destroyer of Deeds that happens to be lounging nearby, something he wouldn't do if his skill were more comparable to that of Player A.

Now of course, you might respond by saying that this situation is hugely exaggerated and can't be generalized to the time/skill issue in its entirety. So then I'd have to redo it more realistically, and I would obviously do this by somewhat closing the skill gap so as not to be so extreme. But then when I give Player B some more skill (let's say a few days of practice), the picture changes. We're not comparing "time versus skill", we're comparing "some skill + time" against "very little time + a little bit more skill than the other guy".

See the problem? You can't make one guy into a "time" player and his competitor into a "skill" player unless you do essentially what I did in my original scenario. Sure "skill > time" is one of the catchlines of Guild Wars, but I highly doubt they had it in mind that we would try to turn it into a rigorous critical argument.

See right there you picked up on the problem. It shouldnt be work.
You shouldnt have to work to be at the same level of effectiveness as someone else in a game.

So you did it, you admit it isnt fun. The reason you are saying no is because you went through it so everyone else should have to?

If you feel that way im sorry, but to me it just seems selfish. "I wasted time so everyone else should have to".

No, it isnt.
I play games for fun and to relax. I do not play them for work.
Currently there is part of the game I (and you) feel it work. I would like that changed so the game is even better than it currently is.
This isnt real life. This is a game. Its a place where things can be changed and improved.


The titles wouldnt change. Nor would how much it takes to max them.
All that would change is once the player has achieved it. They have it on all their chars. So they can stay at the same level of effectiveness without requiring work and grind.

Might I ask how it effects you if I have the title on multiple chars?
The fact is its the player who has played the game.
It is the player who has achieved the titles.
Is is the player who should be able to display those titles.

There is a reason this only applies to grind titles however.
Skill based titles vary for chars, a monk would go about vanquishing very differently to a warrior for example.

Grind titles are the same whatever. Its the same farm over and over. Once you have done it once you shouldnt have to do it all over again just because you would like to play another char.

Maybe thats just you. I really dont care if someone has the title. I dont care if they have a rare skin or 100's of ectos or whatever.

Im not playing to brag or have people brag to me. Im here for fun and enjoyment.
Currently grind titles are not fun for me. I would like to see them made fun, or at least less boring. That would be an improvement.


But at the end of the day who got that title? The player quite obviousely did.
Yet if the player likes to play multiple chars he either cant show it or is hindered from even getting it unless he picks a "title char".

As long as the player has completed the titles, the player should get the reward for that.



Just as an end note here, I said earlier that it seems selfish to me that you say because you "worked" and "wasted" your time everyone else should have to.
I obviousely dont know you and dont want to label you in any negative kind of way. Im just giving my view on what you said.
If you think I have the wrong idea please correct me, I mean no offense in what I say, im just telling you how I see it.



***edit***

As I said clearly in that same post.

"In addition to that anything that is gained through the main storyline isnt really counted. This allows reasonable level and weapon progression such as the way GW does it for example. But with no grind everyone has the same eq, stats etc.
Anything that requires extra time spent, especially grind or farming is considered time however."


It doesnt have to change the outcome of an event.
But there is a difference.

A player who did have a skill at Rank X now has it at Rank Y.

Its not a fine balance.
If player A is a lot better he will for the most part always win.

If the 2 players are the same level as skill however time will decide the outcome.


Its like giving someone a 5 second head start in a race. If your a lot faster it wont change the outcome.
But if you both run at the same speed he suddenly has a huge advantage.

One could argue it's selfish of you to think you should be on even footing with people who "worked" and "wasted" their time while you yourself did not. I wouldn't go so far as to say that myself, but we're only kidding ourselves if we try and pretend our opinions here aren't in any way whatsoever going to reflect our own personal interests.

Fine, choose your definitions as you please. My point still stands: there exist such aspects in the game that are not accessible through the "main storyline" (the skill trainer in Port Sledge, skill caps in Mineral Springs, access to IDS farming) and by your own definition these would still fall under time-based grinding.

Furthermore, you can earn title points through simple GW:EN plot progression so is that to say that these are not to be considered grinding?

Yet again, this is not a case of "time > skill" but "time + skill > just skill". And I've already explained how in a PvE game dynamic where making progress inherently requires time spent that's going to be a given.

No, no. Don't get lost.

- Accomplishment titles are accumulative: +
- Grind tiles are multiplicative: *

Making all the missions with all characters if different. they are different.
Gettng points it's the same.

So the very problem is getting things with all characters.

And that's solved by reducing the cost the more characters max a title.
Once character? The same.
Two? Almost th same, just a bit fater (somwthing like 2%)
Ten? half or so.

But requiring to ma the tiles with every character.

A mod should close this tread because its made of FAILURE, PvE titles are easy to get so why make them like PvP titles(available to all characters). Working for the title keeps the game entertaining.

Grind is entertaining?
O_O
PvE titles may be easy to get, but alot of take a HELL of alot of time, and thats why this thread was made
Grind is also in PvP, Fame Farming, Glad point Farming and the list goes on and on
Progression makes the game fun, but when you have completed it on one char it gets old, boring and too repetitive

Well you dont have to max out your titles.

but he obviously wants to max them all in a weekend to feel better.
no no no no no no.

u can work things different next time, but cannot change things after 1+ years people had played to achieve the titles.
can go on as long as u wont, it's something that wont happen.

(lol this thread is alive again !oO)
Nuclfus seems the only person against the the proposal who's got his head screwed on straight

But still not tightly enuf =P

Firstly, I would like to believe the aim of the proposal was to increase the propensity of gw players to play a variety of character classes, because the game's more fun that way (Viva la Differance!, or whatever they say), not to mention how having another "complete" character is almost identical to a different set of PvE skills, and thus would somewhat influence one's value in a party.

It was decided by the op, and I think many people agree, that the best way to do this was to make grind based titles account based. Why? Grind Based Titles may be retroactively converted from character to account based most painlessly, since every point of progression is essentially an identical unit of player activity, thus, it is possible to amalgamate the points across all characters to an account, whereas it would be impossible with something like the cartographer title, where every contributed point is a unique stage of the character's progression.
Thus, people like Lady Raenef, shouldn't have to worry about having had wasted points on maxing titles on other characters, under this proposal. Whereas a more ambitious proposal to increasing propensity to play multiple characters, might be more painful for such people.

Yea there's still points of inequality in the game, but whats wrong with ironing out the points that are in reach?

oh btw Merry christmas =P

And who said grind-based titles are hard to get? If you'd read the damn topic you'd know. But you don't read, do you? You just post random crap.
This topic isn't made of FAILURE- you are.

/notsigned x100.
Level 1 marching with Slayer of All... lol.
Close this thread por favor.

PvE titles easy to max? I wonder if you have even one maxed title. Oh really, you dont have to max out your title? Thats true, but if you want to, it not good idea that you have max them for all your 10 characters.

Hey now, I likes it a tad loose. Keeps it interesting.

The original proposal was that instead of separate, relatively smaller grinds towards character-specific title ranks we would implement a larger collective grind to determine title rank universally across all characters on an account. This only makes sense, since account titles are spread on a larger, more "long term" scale designed to reflect progress over multiple characters. The reasoning was that currently if a player was to spend time on grinding a particular character only to suddenly feel like playing a different character then that character would need to be caught up despite the fact that time was already spent on the same grind by the same player.

I was against this notion for the reason that if I spend 6 out of 7 hours of gameplay on my mesmer then it only follows I would want to concentrate my grinding efforts there rather than drag along my dervish and warrior both of which receive sporadic play at most. With the current system I can do that, and if I want to grind across more than one character I simply apportion grind-time appropriately between characters at my own discretion. If I want Norn title maxed on the mesmer, need it around rank 7 on my ranger, and don't even want to bother on the others then I can decide how to spend my time grinding so as to achieve that end. If I want them all to be the same, then I spend equal amounts grinding per character. And while I might be considered a "hardcore" by most people, this helps the casual player too. Someone with only enough time to play one or two characters is not disadvantaged by a collective grind meant to reflect the progress of 5 or 6 different characters.


The OP's idea allowed for the title being scaled to appropriately reflect the longer road of a real PvP or account title. Gradually as this thread went on, the attitude was adopted that the account-wide nature of a grind would reflect that it should be a one-time process for the player rather than repeated for every character. The added string of the grind itself being increased to compensate for a maxed account title becoming too easily attained was dropped and forgotten entirely. There are numerous reasons given, such as "grinding is supposed to reward the player not the character" or "the game shouldn't be time > skill" and it is the fallacies here I sought to address.

As for "wasting" time on the wrong character, that's something one should have thought of before investing in the grind in the first place, and it's a mistake one should understand having to live with. I could just as well argue that I wasted so much money on 15k armor for my warrior since I feel like deleting her now. Now if I make a ritualist instead I'll have to start all over if I want that armor, even though I put in all that time already earning it up for the warrior. Can't I have every unit of gold spent via goldsinks on that character refunded to me upon deletion? As with grind, I've already farmed up the cash once and doing it again would be repetitive and monotonous. Each little coin of gold is an identical unit of non-unique currency, so surely the same principles that apply to the title point could be applied to it. And in addition as with the titles, I wouldn't have to be penalized for the mistake of "wasting my time" on the wrong character.

This idea doesn't iron out inequality, it only makes it worse. Let's say you have two players under the proposed system who both start on new characters in Nightfall at the same time. According to the sacred "skill > time" principle so many people here are toting, if player A gets ahead of player B then it should roughly reflect player A simply being a more skilled player than B. Sounds like equal treatment to me, right?

But then we find out that player B has his Sunspear title maxed already thanks to previous grinds on another character. Player A meanwhile, is playing Nightfall for the first time. That's not to say he's a newbie in this game, in fact he's a skilled veteran of Prophecies and Factions. But when they both reach the Sunspear Hall, player B suddenly has access to very powerful title skills while player A is left in the dust. Player B goes about rampaging through primary quests with high power title skills. Player A? Left in the dust. Does that sound like "skill > time" to you? Does that sound like "ironing out inequality"? If so, I'm not convinced.

Also, Merry Christmas everyone.

Wow you guys takes this too seriously, always fun to make you guys burn up like that have fun with your tread. Merry Christmas.

i think that grind titles should simply be an account thing. after all....you're playing the game, not the actual character. So what is to stop you from having this available on other Characters of course.

Now lets say you have holy Lightbringer on one Char, but the other one you have made, doesnt belong to that Chapter...i think thats where limitations to account based PvE titles should be. If you have the same Chapter-based characters and all 2-3- or however many have max lb/ss would make sense.
if your tyrian character is lvl 14 and still in yaks bend, it wouldnt really make ANY sense for that character to have the title available for display. that character you should have to achieve the title again.

all imo, but you guys are really going too far with this. Its a game. dont take it so seriously

Could we stop confusing difficulty with time investment please. The time investment comes from having to repeat a task over and over. The difficulty comes from how difficult that task is. And I don't see any of the ways to reach the grind titles as difficult tasks, just time consuming.

The grind titles are easy, but take a long time to max out. For an example, lets take the Sunspear and Lightbringer titles. These can be maxed out with wurm which means that once you have acquired the quests, all you need to do is repeat the same route grabbing the bounties. You don't even need to attack the enemies if your H/Hing, just go to a mob and wait for the H/H to kill it. So the hardest part of the wurm route is getting to the point where you can start doing the runs.

So which of the grinding titles requires the most skill to acquire ?

Now you could argue that the task based titles are difficult, but I'm not going to get into that because I'm not asking them to be changed.

I proposed increasing the grind to head off the people who would complain about this making the titles require too little work. But I turned against this part for two reasons:

1 - Work has no part in a game we play for enjoyment. Especially since the PvE grind in Guild Wars is a lot less fun than in any other MMO I've seen. At least the MMO's with lots of grind make their grind fun.
2 - There are a lot of people with a single character, and they will be hurt by any increase in the points required.

Now ANET could implement a system where the points scale based on how many characters you have to deal with problem 2. So I don't actually care about changing the points requirement any more.

What about people who had no way of knowing that they would be wasting time because of changes ANET made after they made their characters ?

For instance the seed of life nerf turned the SS grinding on my monk from being useful to being wasted time overnight. Armor you would of expected beforehand (and apart from the title requirement, you could grind up the gold on any of your characters), and once you have the cheapest max armor (easily obtained by the gold you pick up getting your character to the crafter, unless you take runners) getting more expensive armor doesn't have any gameplay effect at all.

But the title-linked skills weren't added until after I already had 6 characters. So show me how making the characters was a bad decision based upon the information I had when I made them.

So if the only PUGs around will only take players who have built up a grind title to a specific level, who is to blame here ?

The PUGs ?
I can't see blaming them since they are only after an effective team setup. It's not really their fault, since I can't see this being much different to rejecting someone for having a bad skillbar, or not being level 20. The only time I can see blaming the PUG as reasonable is when there aren't enough people above their required rank for them to form a full group.

But lessen the grind required, or the grinds effects, and you have less people forming groups like this.

Wow, so much hate and flaming in this thread...

Back on topic: I already /signed this but I do see the other side of the story. Yeah the KOABD title track is supposed to show the efforts you've done for that one particular character, not your account. If this were to happen you'd see rank 6 KOABD's running around all the time. But I still think it should be implemented, it would be much easier and less time-consuming.

Who says work has no part in enjoyment? You. Who says it's not fun? You. Who can stop playing whenever they want if they feel the game isn't fun? You. Who's opinion are all these notions based on? That's right: you.

For people like you, there's the option of getting by without grind. Yes it can be done, just as it was before these title skills even existed. Now for people like me, who believe work and enjoyment can coincide or that "work" is only such so long as the player sees it that way, the grind is there to be appreciated as just another obstacle presented by the game to be overcome.

You still have 9 other sunspear skills you can use with secondary professions on your monk, and if you choose not to acknowledge that then ironically enough I do see a waste of grind.

The same could be said of armor if it were the case that skill nerfs rendered all my warrior builds useless. I could either find new builds... or I could ignore that possibility and then expect a refund seeing as I invested in something that I can no longer apply exactly the way I want.

First show me where I said "bad decision" and not "mistake". Until you stop putting words in my mouth I'm not going to waste my time showing you anything.


Yes, the PUGs are to blame. Rationalizing a PUG's motives doesn't change the fact that whether a person is allowed in their party is completely in their control, not the grind's. No level 16's in their party? It's arguable whether that's fair, but either way it's their fault.

Now as to the "fair" question. A farming group in DoA who turns away a level 13 (assuming one could even get there) would be acting on the basis that the area as a whole was and is still meant for level 20 characters. Fair judgment call? Even I would probably say yes. If the same farming group turns away a rank 3 UB, would they be acting on the basis that it was meant to be played at higher ranks? No, in fact they're completely ignoring the fact that the same area predates UB itself. Even after changes since the title skills came to exist it still stands that DoA is in Nightfall, which means there's no guarantee that the player would even have ursan blessing to meet the challenge with. Is it doable without UB? It has to be. Fair to lock out anyone without it? I think not.

What this shows is that things like level progression and decent skillbars are just a fact of playing through PvE, while grinding titles is an issue Anet has very clearly and very deliberately left as something that PvE can be accomplished entirely without. It seems to me that accepting that simple fact is in any player's best interests, since when you realize how little grinding actually gets you in PvE (less effort needed in certain areas at the cost of so many hours of "work") you'll be happier for not thinking you have to spend so much time doing it.

Hmm interesting point about the rank.
But if i get you right and i think i do.
when you get excluded from a pug course your Norn rank is to low.
last time i checked they demand a minimal of rank 8.
Lightbringer back in the days whas rank 6 minimal
This is no more nor the less virtual discrimination.
But i think this is more elitism behavior.
To make a long story short it's a fact if you wanna roll with the DoA teams you have to grind course with LB 6 an Norn 8 you might be taken serious if you are belong scram and don't start about this ain't the truth course it is happening to me all the time i can't pug course i do not have the recommended rank.
So in favor of the alliance titles make it account wide.

Greetzzzz Sparda

Just remember. This do not meant to get titles at level 1.

That can be fixed in many ways:
1.) First of all, at least one character has to max the title. That's Obvious.
2.) Then, that character has to beat the campaign, to unlock hard mode.
3.) For 'core' titles(like wisdom), any campaign would do. They could also need the realms of the gods beaten, or a minimun PvP experience (like getting rank 1 in every PvP title).
4.) Then his grind titles become the 'account based versions'.
5.) Other characters will have their separate title tracks until they qualify to share the account based versions too.
6.) Once a character qualify to share the title with the other characters, his points vanish and uses the account version instead.

That way, characters that play with one character will have much higher points in their grind titles (they keep counting after reaching the max)

Then, for the second character to qualify, we can put one or more of this prerequisites.
1.) Reach level 20.
1.a) And have 200 attribute points.
1.b) And being ascended.

2.) Beat the the campaign of the title, or the core realsm or some PvP experience (just like before).

3.) Reach at least a certain track of the title. (LB4, Sunspear 8, Norn 6, Wisdom 1, etc)
3.a.) That could depend on how many characters have maxed the title in the account. One character maxes ligtbringer, no effect. 2 max lightbringer, you get the account version when reaching level 7. 4 max lightbringer, reach rank 6, and so on.


REMEMBER:
- It's NOT "level 1 characters get easily the titles".
- It's "being able to play fluently with all 10 characters using PvE skills without being halted to much by grinding".