Make all grind-based titles account based.

Which part is "peoples fun" that we want to "take away"? HM SS/LB farm? HM snowman lair over and over? HM seige farming? Oh, that one might be fun, if you look past how easy it is to get a team that sucks (No sarcasm, I see how it can be fun). Chest running? Ok, in harder areas, sure, but who chest runs in elite-ish areas for treasure hunter points? (as opposed to doing it for loot)

Anyhow, if you find it fun to grind the titles that the OP is proposing change to, then you will find them fun to do with or without the prospect of upping titles, shouldn't you?

/signed, but only if the story-based titles are only unlocked for account-wide after clearing the respective campaign/Xpac

erm... not if u actually consider maxing titles to be part of finishing the game???
Is finishing the game really the ONLY goal people have in mind?
And PLEASE don't talk about "need" in a sentence relating to a game. EVERYTHING in a game is meant to be about what people WANT.
... and please don't say this is about making things easier, cos its not.
Its about changing the way to achieve them..

LOL at the analogy, how is your family getting a trophy, for you killing a mob analogous to YOU killing a mob and YOu gaining recognition for it?

Everyone in my family is part of my blood are they not? Welp that's how the analogy works. Blood is blood and by yalls standards all blood of your characters should get the same as one character which I do not agree with and neither does Anet thank goodness.

Actually, Red Sonya, they do agree.

PvP titles.

Kurzick/Luxon Faction and titles (with linked skills).

Gamer titles.

All of these are account-based.

The problem is, they have some arbitrary reasoning behind making some titles account-wide, and other titles only character based. It's obviously not storyline-based, as Kurzick and Luxon titles are, and they aren't character based. It's obviously not for the titles based on skills, since, again, Kurzick/Luxon titles have skills, and Cartography/Vanq/Protector/etc don't.

So where is the line, and why is that arbitrary line there? I'd really, truly, and honestly like to know.

Sorry, but, there are many titles that have a show of SKILL. Gladiator titles, Survivor Titles just to name two. So, my analogy works quite well here. Many of the titles you get you have to fight mobs to get and that takes SKILL to fight mobs so yeah my analogy works quite well here you just don't know what you're talking about is all. But, I'll just leave it that it's working as intended and these types of pages have been up time and time again and Anet hasn't changed them an most likely won't. All titles should and will be gained individually as they are now and I'm glad. As someone else said a level 4 whatever shouldn't have a title a level 20 what other ever got. Besides it will give you something to do for many YEARS to come by having to get all these titles individually and I'm sure only the most dedicated with do that and that is why it should remain the same so they will stand out more amongst the whinning crowd that just whined about it instead of doing it.

PVP titles do not fall into the same catagory as PVE titles and special event titles like Gamer also do not fall into PVE or PVP titles. You're bringing up apples and oranges now. No one is going to argue what is already account based. The main titles are PVE titles and they or 99.9% of them are not account based.

Explain Kurzick/Luxon titles and the PvE only linked skills.

Also, explain why the gamer titles, which have a PvE only effect (chance to not break lockpicks), are account based.

Please. I'm waiting.

A PvP title, and a title I'm not asking to be changed.
Yes, it may take some skill. But after you have done it a few times without trouble, another repeat doesn't require any extra skill.
Why are character based grind titles a good thing ?
You will note that when asked why this was a bad thing, they didn't respond. So will you tell us why this is a bad thing ?
Especially since the Factions PvE only skills already allow it.
Years of repeating the same task over and over ?
How many people would instead get bored and go play another game ?
Stand out ?
When was the last time anyone actually stood out for having a title ?

While at it, I'll gladly hear why Lucky, title used in pve, is acc based.
Go go go

You really dont seem to understand what im trying to say and your twisting it!

Im saying that at this moment, nothing ingame which requires grind is essential and there for your not forced into doing it.

How-ever if there was an essential thing (armor, weapons, skills, ranks) ingame which required grind to achieve them. And you couldnt progress ingame or complete the game without them... then yes, I would agree whole-heartedly with this thread.

But nothing ingame which require grind (excessive or not) is critical to anything. People only want the end-results out of want and not need.

Which is fine and I respect that, because I am the same. Im currently working to max all the reputation ranks. Not because I need to but because 1) I want to and 2) I havent alot else to do.

I dont enjoy doing the same quest or dungeons or bounty hunting over and over again, but im realistic in knowing I chose to do it. I could very well go play another character instead or farm gold for destroyer gloves instead.

As for the consiquences of doing making all "grind-based" titles account based...

1) That is a very vague title and request.

Who are you or I to dictate what title requires grind and which doesnt! Its all subjective (as mentioned by others). You could argue that all titles require grind and all should be account based. But how would it make sense to have protector or gaurdian be account based?

Something would need to create a clear-cut definition of what grind is and how it relates to titles, and then have every member of the community agree along with Anet.

But that wont happen, because in retrospect everything in GWs requires grind to one-degree or another. So why should titles be the focus on attention? They have no real baring on anything and dont effect anything in a critical way.

2) There are going to be players who have achieved alot of these titles on multiple characters and worked their ass off for it. Why should those titles then be made account based because a select few cant be bothered or put some importance on that title which doesnt exist?

Isnt that unfair on those players who worked for it?

3) For example, lets say you made the guardian title account based because by your definition it requires repeating the same missions more then once but in HM.

Can you imagine the impact of having a level10 character running around low-level areas with "Legendary Gaurdian". Is that a true reflection of that characters ability? No!

They might never have played that profession before and have NO clue what their doing, but because they have LG displayed it gives the impression to players that their experienced.

The same arguement goes for making any titles account based. If that title reflects a certain level of ability and you allow a new character (someone who hasnt earned it) to display it, it gives the illusion they have experience in that area.

4) It gives an unfair advantage in GWEN over new players!

Why should a new player be able to enter GWEN and right away have rank10 drawf? That gives them a staggering advantage over anyone who is only just starting GWEN for the first time.

The same goes for Norn, Asuran and Vanguard (especially Vanguard)!

5) You could argue the same for LB and SS.

If a person creates a new character and they already have max ranks in NF on LB and SS, they will completely bypass the quests to earn those points. That is basically cheating! They will also enter the ROT or be able to fight Abaddons minions with a huge advantage over anyone who is new.



IMO you can only make titles account based that wont give an unfair advantage in those respects. Wisdom and treasure hunting are the only ones that fall into that catergory because they only effect your lucky % and that doesnt effect you ability to play.

Benefits

For Elonian characters, progress in the Sunspear Rank title track is required to complete:

* The Nightfall attribute quests:
o Rising in the Ranks: Sunspear Master Sergeant (requires Sunspear rank 2)
o Rising in the Ranks: First Spear (requires rank 4)
* The following primary quests:
o The Honorable General (requires rank 4 or character level 12)
o The Time is Nigh (requires rank 5 or character level 17)
o And a Hero Shall Lead Them (requires rank 7)

LOOOL take a look at your argument no.4.


See the flaw? How can something give an unfair advantage when its not... "necessary"???


Also LOOOL

But yet you argue abt whats necessary like it was your god given right to say what is and isn't.."necessary"? Arg the hipicrasy!!!
What exactly is "necessary" in a game?? Its ALL about what people want. Of course you can't go round giving titles willynilly to people, but this is just a proposed change to the acquisition of titles.
Right now the titles reward a playstyle that LIMITs the strategic diversity in gameplay ( and PLEASE dont say a title isn't a reward -___-).
The purpose of acct based titles is to ENCOURAGE strategic diversity (creation of more pve characters).

And wtf????

For one thing Legendary Guardian was not one of the titles proposed to be made account based ( and appropriately too, because your argument 2 actually makes sense =P,"Grind based titles"* are easy to merge from characters to account, Legendary Guardian is not.).
And seriously... if completing all the hard mode missions isn't enough to convince you of experience, you obviously don't have to accept that s/he's expierienced... YOU dont "NEED" to recognise their experience nobody is "FORCING" you to party with them.. lol??

as for 2....
HENCE the DEFINITIONS for the titles to be made account based...as i said before
Grind based titles= easy(ier) to merge from character to account
trying to merge anything else = very messy
And besides... didn't someone mention the titles weren't "necessary", who cares those hard working people will deal with it right???


Like i said before... is it not just about.. how should i say it, "want"?
who cares its not needed anyway(according to your previous arguments), and has no impact on the game blah blah blah....
HIPOCRACY!!!!!

well at least we can agree on something ^^

*edit: for the purposes of this post, "grind based title" will be defined as any title which may be progressed completion of "small" indistinct tasks, where "small" = approx 5 mins, although open to interpretation...

There is a difference between something giving you an advantage, and whether that advantage is critical to completing the game or any of its aspects.

Nothing which requires grind is critical, as ive said. But they do admittadly give you an edge and I cant deny that.

That is why I made arguement number 4 and 5! Someone entering GWEN with full reputation titles (due to them being account based) without having played any aspects of GWEN will have an advantage over a new player.

But its not critial to enter GWEN with all reputation titles at 10! Thats the distinction!

I accept the guardian example I made was extreme and unrealistic, but it made the point I was trying to make. This is why IMO you cant make titles account based that give these advantages that I talk about.

We cant have people making new characters and walking into GWEN with full reputation ranks.

We cant have people making new characters and walking into NightFall with full LB or SS ranks.

I hate to say this, but I can now actually appreciate why the Luxon and Kuzack titles are character based (i think it is anyway)! Something I previously didnt agree with because they had a really bit max levels.

I just get the last laugh because it's never going to be change nor should. Once again in explanation of those that are ALREADY ACCOUNT BASED I have no need to explain the titles that are already account based. My comments are on those that are not and should not ever be account based and should be preform individually by every single character you play.

Remember it is YOU who choses to play more than ONE character, thus it is YOU who must bear/bare the burden of having to grind for those titles for as many characters as YOU CHOOSE to play. The game is designed well for ONE character and the grind is minimal for ONE character. When you break out of the design and attempt to play more than ONE an/or play all 10 or any number from 2 to 10 then YOU must play by the same rules as the ONE.

/signed


we all know anet wont allow that tho its their server their RULES

if u arent happy go to silkroad ill meet u there

I gave a precise definition in my OP, and I listed the titles I was asking to be changed. If you want to argue about my definition thats fine, but your definition is the vague one because you haven't shown a line between where something is grind and something isn't.

Also this isn't a consequence of the idea, just you trying to make it look vague.

So exactly how many characters are you talking about when you say multiple ?

Because they make things quicker to achieve for the people running multiple characters.

How is it unfair ?

The definition I used was repeating identical content. Hard mode changes the mission content. Therefore it isn't a grind title.

But it is a reflection of the players ability.

Perhaps, but they would at least know the maps. And even if it showed nothing, how is a useless indicator any worse than no indicator like we have now ?

Besides, who actually looks at a PUGs title when inviting them ?
I don't.
Which of the PVE grind titles show more skill than the task titles ?

And again, who actually cares about a PUGs title when you invite them ?

An advantage at doing what exactly ?
Getting through the campaign a second time ?

How is this a bad thing ?

So people get an easier time through on their second run. You haven't shown how that is a bad thing.

The only reason that you wouldn't have to explain why the Unlucky title (which does nothing) is account based while the reputation titles (which have significant effects) are character based is because someone already has explained it. So where is this explanation ?

And your failing to say why you feel this way.

When I created six of my characters the grind to boost skills [/b]wasn't implemented into Guild Wars[/b]. So when I chose to make my characters, there was no way I could of known about the grind.

So how did I chose to repeat the grind, when I couldn't of known about it ?

Then why has ANET provided us with eight character slots ?

The following things suggest a game designed for people to play multiple characters:
- 8 character slots, with the ability to purchase more.
- Account based guild system
- Account based friend/ignore list

You will note that most MMO's don't do the last two, yet they have been in Guild Wars since release. Grind titles were added after release. So please explain why these would be here in a game designed for people to stick to one character.

ZOMG! some ppl are slow -___-

MAYBE we were asking for the design to be changed?????

fish and fish i think you missed the point.. again.
It's a game nothing is "critical". Really the only thing that should be considered critical is that you have fun playing it, yes?
Go to this link... http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10210784
And that clearly shows most ppl perfer playing a diverse set of characters(or would do so if the titles werent the way they are now).
Right now, its more "rewarding"(in terms of titles/armour, per unit of time) to play only one character
I think ( and prolly a lot of other people out there ) that there should not be so much of a trade off between variety and "rewards".
One ways to reduce the disincentive of diverse characters is to implement whats been suggested by Bilateral.

edit: and what's so wrong about entering GWEN with full rep titles... the only thing thats separating a new character from those maxed titles is hours and hours of grind...Hence anybody who grinds will have an "unfair advantage" is that really what you would perfer????

/signed .

Sorry it won't be.

New Motto: Please do not feed the whinny trolls.

As I said ONE to play PVE well with and 7 others to play different PVP characters of different types where grinding is not required.

Also are you REALLY that dense bylateral? Just some of your questions reek of dense. They have been answered by ANET in that NO is the answer in that there will NOT be changes is their answer. So are you so dense as to not RESPECT their answers? Well I guess you are...see my above motto.

We have skill and gear templates, so PvP characters can be rerolled in maybe a minute. So why would we need more than one PvP slot ?

Do you really think that insulting my intelligence will get you anywhere here ?

Please provide proof of these statements on ANET
I'll respect ANETs comments on this, once someone provides proof that the statements exist.

/signed

I hate this comment more than anything!!!! WHY is it acceptable for PVP to be account based then?? Just because it was started that way? Stupid answer. Because you earn it in PVP? Well PvE people earn the titles from grinding on one character, but are pegged to have to do it over and over and over again.

Just because your an R8 ranger doesn't mean you are an R8 anything else. So once again the argument is why? Why should PvP be account based and have everything unlocked for minute old characters, and PvE characters have to grind?

Yes, some titles should be account based, and IMO heroes should be account based too. In respect that once you get to the area you can obtain them it grabs the one on the account...no need to rune, upgrade and arm each and everyone of them. Olias on my monk, would be the same as Olias on my tank...just like it is in PvP.

But I also think the HoM should be account based, Especially minipets, and heroes.

When you consider that (for example) reputation points, LB and SS point are extremely easy to make by just playing through the storylines, then yes... its just lazey to want them to be account based.

Why should you be able to enter GWEN with rank 10 on all races?

Why should you be able to enter NF with max ranks on LB and SS?

What need is there when just playing both those games and doing all the quests and dungeons will get you half way through the titles! Why does it make your game more fun to have rank 10 drawf over rank 5 drawf?

It doesnt, it just makes the game easier and thats all its about.




Update:

I'll reword that a bit; does having max ranks on any of these titles prevent you from playing the game or having fun ingame?

QFT.

/Signed for making Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Wisdom, Treasure Hunter all account-based.

/Not-Signed for making Sunspear, Lightbringer and the GW:EN titles account-based. Or at the very least half-signed in that perhaps one character could have influence on the other characters of the account... but not translate the same title over. E.g. for every 10 points gained by a character, the other chars on the account gain 1 point by proxy. Don't forget that these skills are directly related to storyline, and while a character of high reknown might drop the good word for his / her fellows... they're unlikely to share in that very same reknown.


And an additional note that Kurzick / Luxon title tracks should be made character-based the same way and the pointage required for them divided by 10 overall.

If they are linked to the storyline, why is going out and killing random generic minions much more effective than going out and killing the thing who, once killed, makes the minions much weaker ?

The only link I see is that they happen to share the same name.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH AAHA
Do you know ANYONE with 7 PvP characters? Are you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing kidding me?

/Signed

It made no sense that I have to build up my reputation for Sunspear, Lightbringer, and EoN Titles (except Master of the North) for each of my character. All of those reputations should be account-based just like Allegiance title for Luxon/Kurzick. Anet is encouraging us to be someone with little to no life at all to build up reputation on each character we have on our account.

what difference does it make if bounty hunting gets you more points then quests and dungeons?

Quests and dungeons get you to rank 5 (which most people want/need) and then you have to earn the rest by repeating those quests and dungeons OR by bounty hunting.

As it should be!

There are SOO many ways available to you to make reputation points that its laughable...

Quest rewards!
Dungeon rewards!
NM and HM handbooks!
NM and HM dungeon book!
Mini games!
Bounties!
And a one off payment to fill both books in NM!

..how much easier do you want it to be? Reputation points are extremely easy to make. The problem isnt making these other titles account based. Its making LB, SS, Luxon, Kuzack and other points easier to make.

Add handbooks to factions and nightfall for instance.

since they are not going to make it easier for bots human or otherwise the *farmers favorites* Wisdom, Treasure Hunter will never be account-based.

the pro elite barbie i have it you dont farmer is so small a percent of the player base they could all go and not only never be missed but make the game a friendler place.

notice how after the factions fiasco Anet has been much more and increasingly more casual player friendly at the expence of the top of the elite epeen food chain?

more casual to come so enjoy it

All it shows is that they aren't really linked to the storyline.

Why should it be this way ?

When are you going to stop confusing the titles difficulty with the time invested ?

Having to repeat an easy task several times doesn't do anything to its difficulty. All it does is increase the time required to get the reward.

Also I gave a response to your post about the harms this suggestion would create asking for more detail on these harms. Please provide the detail.

Except that the Lucky title, which effects chest farmers, is already account based.
This suggestion would make GW more casual friendly.

I did respond to it and I dunno how much clearer I can make it. Having a person enter GWEN or NF or any other game with max ranks is an unfair advantage over other players if that title has benefits upon the player.

(I.E extra damage, or protection, or energy or health!

Not in a critical sense, but just in having a completely unfair and undeserved and unearned advantage!

Why should a player be able to enter GWEN with +10 damage against destroyers straight off without having even set foot in the game?

Why should a player enter NF with max LB or SS titles and have added damage against abaddons minions without even set foot in the game?

It completely defies the point of earning those points as you go. Earning those points as a reward for doing the quests and dungeons on that character.

It just doesnt make sense!!! Just learn to accept this is pve and the entire point is to earn stuff individually on each character. It isnt pvp where you unlock something on one char and its available to all.

It makes no sense that one character earns those points for reputation or faction and somehow, magically, unknowingly a completely different character has access to them. Its pve and its individual.

The Luxon and Krzack ones are unstandable because they dont have any inherant effect on your character other then the pve only skills. They dont give you extra damage or health or energy or protection by just equipping them.

But those which do, SHOULD NOT be account based because that character is then feeling the benefits of something another character earned.




Your basically asking for a player to start NF and to give a newbie +damage and +protection against Abaddons destroyers at low levels! If you want to talk about creating inbalancement ingame, then there is a perfect example.

All new players entering NF (who have no existing characters there) are going to have a hard struggle against them because they wont have that edge. Its not critically important edge, but its an unfair one.

The applies to luxon and kurzack. Why should a newbie player be able to enter Factions and get maxed out or high ranking oober powerfull pve only skills straight away? Its unfair on players who have no existing characters in factions.

The entire point of pve is that everyone has the same edge and no one is at an advantage. That is how the game has always worked and if you want the advantage you have the choice to work for it. Not to have it from the word-go.

Yes, I got that the first time. But why is it a bad thing that people get an easier time on their second character ?

Be sure to produce a reason that takes into account improvements in player skill, knowledge of the maps they got the first time through, and having more skills for their heroes.

Grind titles reward time played, not player skill. So when you have something that makes other players better simply because they spent more time grinding, how is that a fair system ?

ZOMG ZOMG chicken or the egg which one!?!!? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE!!!*head explodes*
LoL you are so confined to the square, ahem, fishtank you live in fish...
Your notions of whats "fair" and what "makes sense" seem verry limited.
I don't know if you realise... but fairness is concept governed by the mechanics of the game, and by peoples opinions.

If people think it's fair enough to have people starting characters with max titles after having "earned them" in the usual human sense on another character. only THEN can an insigificant observer say whether its "fair" or not.
YOU as an individual dont' decide whats "fair" or "sensible".

The question that remains, and should be the sole point of discussion, is whether or not people( or more importantly what anet thinks the people- [which essentially people in general] ) would perfer to play a game that rewards play of multiple characters as opposed to single characters, and then decide on a balance that best satisfies the demographic.

Hence this discussion will not be settled without a poll

edit: my opinion based on my generalised perception of human nature, says that people prefer the variety =]
poll suggestion;Seems to me theres 3 groups of ppl in this discussion:
People who prefer no changes to titles:
People who prefer TreasureHunter, wisdom, drunktard, sweet tooth to be made acct based.
People who prefer All "grind based" titles to be made acct based subject to "constraints".
"constraints" refers to changes to the actual titles which includes, but is not limited to increased cap, wearing only at certain lvls etc.

in rebuttal to my own point i suggest the example of tax cuts xD lol (where every1 wants em but are prolly not for the best).
My argument does rely on the assumption that people are rational (fair assumption right?).

Note from Moderator: Posts Merged. Please edit your post instead of double posting.

In fact I know several who have 7 pvp characters even more and 1 or 2 pve characters. I personally don't like building and deleting and rebuilding and deleting all different types. So, I picked the ones I like best and now all I have to do is make 2ndaries for them and change their equipment. Much faster and less time consuming. Got anymore silly stupid questions there child?

Note from Moderator: Stick to discussing the topic, less flame baiting please.

Yes, so you know a few players who use a lot of PvP slots. Unless you can prove that its a significant portion of Guild Wars it doesn't help your point.

If you want proof then go make a separate thread asking people how many slots they use for PvE and PvP, with a poll if you can add one, and see how people respond.
I'd probably do the same if I had spare slots. However your saying 30 seconds at most by having multiple classes already made, so its not worth deleting a PvE character over.
Eariler you said that ANET has answered some of my questions. Are you ever going to show us where ANET gave these answers ?

why make more then one character when you only want to do everything once.

Because when you make a new character it makes the tasks different. But with grind titles, you have to do the exact same thing multiple times.

Let me explain, I have one character going for drunken title, one character going for the sweet tooth title, if i think the drunken character need to be a sweet tooth, it will get it as long as GW is operating. If I get an ale the drunken gets it. simple, why grind? PLAY THE GAME, DON'T GRIND and DON'T WHINE. its not like you need to have the drunken title or the sweet tooth title to complete GW:EN or Faction et cetera, sweet tooth character don't have super powers to kill destroyers. so why grind to get it? you'll get it when you get it, fullstop.

Ok, so that removes the titles that don't give any effect. But that still leaves Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Sunspear, Lightbringer and the GW:EN reputation titles which give an effect for grinding them.

those that do give you effect (wait one second, treasure hunter has effect? what kind?)

Back to topic, those that actually give you effect, don't you think its kinda in the same league as run me to Drognar to get max armor kind of "cheating"? the reasons for the reputations is so that you work to get the armor for your character, if you are not even interested in playing that part of the game, why do you want armor from that part of the game?

might as well ask Anet to include it in an armor package like the pvp package, pay for it with paypal with one condition, it'll says in your name that you've paid for it.

thanks below post for answer, i forgot about that.

Lulz, discussion is pointless. Play the game.