Make all grind-based titles account based.

Personally I feel that the benefit from more people having maxed out stats would outweigh any harm from reducing the value of KOBD. But the harm involved would be hard to quantify.

But doesn't the value come from the work involved ?
Meaning that the value of KOBD would come from the work involved in maxing the component titles.

So if ANET changes the points required for the titles then they can do this while not altering the total work required for maxing out the effected titles on all characters for the average player. If this is done, I don't see how KOBD could be devalued when it still requires the same amount of work.

Its because some PvE titles directly effect our gameplay ability. The only thing in your list that effects gameplay is the skills, and I've got all the skills on my characters that I want to use, so getting any more would do nothing for my gameplay.

FoW armor is a purely vanity item. So I don't really care about the grind involved.

These are things that you do once per character, so again I answer this question with no.

No
No

No, I'm against making any of the task based achievements account based. So don't try to say that I would want it to go any further.

I'm willing to repeat each task once per character. Not multiple times.

So if this change doesn't make any sense, show me how having to repeat a task multiple times for a stat boost makes sense in respect to gameplay.

And if my change doesn't make sense, how do the Lucky and Unlucky titles make sense now ?

Since the Lucky title has an effect, why shouldn't the other titles with greater effects also be account based ?
And since the Unlucky title has no effect, why shouldn't other titles gained by grinding also be account based ?

And before you mention the work involved, remember that I am willing for ANET to change the points required. So ANET could keep the amount of work required the same.

If you really feel this way, you probably should go and create a thread asking for those titles to be made character based. Otherwise it will just get hidden in this thread where few people will be able to comment on it. And I really don't see ANET making the change unless it has had a lot discussion when its obvious that it will generate a lot of whining.

Thats the bit about your opinion I find really bizarre!!!

There are 100s of things ingame which require you to do stuff more then once. Some are completely mundane such as quests and missions and others are earning points from doing the same thing.

But your idea of "not wanting to repeat something more then once" doesnt fit into an MMO or RPG!

One of the main aspects of an MMO and RPG is this idea of having to redo stuff over and over again. I just find it odd that yourself and others play games like this and then complain about having to repeat things more then once.

By comparison to other games (like wow) the amount of grind or stuff you have to repeat is mimimul!

Imagine we couldnt teleport to towns and had to walk everywhere or jump onto a boat or a zeplin to travel everywhere like in wow?

Imagne we had to fish to get food to increase health, or mine ore for armor and weapons like in wow?

Imagine quests and missions were tied to set levels, and you couldnt do high them unless you were this level or that level like in wow?

Imagine you couldnt buy armor or use set skills unless you were a set level for your character like in wow?

But instead we have a game where virtually everything is given to you.

You can use any armor at any level, you can use any skills at any level. You can map travel vast distances instead of walking. You can get max armor at just 1.5k. You can get armor and weapons from collectors.

Skill prices are capped at 1k and easy to get from NPCs and elite skills are easy to find and cap.

Compared to most other MMOs or RPGs that I know of, the progression in this game and aquisistion of armor and weapons and skills is very generious and easily done and cheap.

This is why it annoys me that people complain about grind, because while grind is inherant to all games of this style, this particular game has VERY little compared to more poplar games.

But then you start saying it grind to have to do repeat something more then once?

Ive said this before right! What once you have completed the game and you dont have anything else to do, is it considerd grind to spend your time repeating dungeons over and over again?

Are you being forced into that?

Im going to remove my subsripton from this now, because its getting daft. But you cant complain about grind, when yout CHOOSING to do that activity yourself and your not being forced into it.

Which your not!

Ok, which quests require you to do an identical task multiple times per character ?
Which of these quests aren't avoidable ?
Which of them give you stat bonuses ?

The main reason I'm defining grind as having to repeat a task is because that is the one place I can easily draw the line between it being grind or not. As for it being acceptable grind, that depends a lot on the task being repeated. And even if we decided it on a per title basis and agreed that it became unacceptable at x repeats, I can't see how we could justify the x instead of x+1 or x-1. So since acceptable grind a very subjective quantity (I know people who like the grind in Maple Story, which is one of the worst MMOs for grind around), I don't want to use it.

When I started Guild Wars with prophesies we didn't have any grind that gave stat bonuses. Then the titles came in and the grind started arriving. Factions added more with the faction requirements to complete the storyline.

Besides why is grind actually a good component of RPGs ?

All I see it as is a way to increase how long players keep playing, without actually adding any new content.

So we shouldn't do anything to make Guild Wars better because other games, which we can't do anything about, have it worse ?

Yes, Guild Wars is good because it doesn't have those things. But why stop where we are now when improvements can still be made ?

So why stop here when more improvements can be made ?

And then there are the people who avoid the popular games and come to Guild Wars because it has less grind than the other games.

Yes I would consider it grind, unless I made a new character for it.

But we aren't being forced to do it because it doesn't give us any stat boosts.

I realise that I can no longer justify making titles with no stat benefits accounts based except by asking why they are different for unlucky. So I will stop pushing for them to be account based unless I can justify them.

However that still leaves the titles which have gameplay boosts, including the ones like wisdom which only give small boosts to how fast you earn gold.

Wisdom is probably the title which makes the least sense of any of them since you can acquire the golds and ID kits on one character, then ID them all on a level 1 in Shing Jea. So even though the majority of the work was done by other characters, the level 1 gets the title and the benefits.

But if Wisdom is made account based to fix that, why should other titles which give greater benefits be kept as character based ?

Using the word forced may of been a bad choice, since you aren't forced to do anything in-game. But you are encouraged for some tasks because they give stat boosts, which directly improve your character.

So why is grinding for stat boosts a good thing ?

So why is grinding for stat boosts a good thing?

Because it becomes a goal and it becomes a goal for each individual character to have that wants them. Goals are what drive us to play these silly games in the first place. They all have a beginning, but, MMO/MMORPG's should NOT have an END. That's why there's a game called ta dah EVERQUEST <~~~ get the point? Many of the titles you whine about come by just playing, not by grinding. Anyone who plays long enough will get treasure hunter and wisdom and if they take part in all the holiday specials that offer it lucky and unlucky titles will grow for THAT INDIVIDUAL character. Personally I don't think anything should be "account based" and each individual character should have to build up their titles and skills. But, Anet has determined that for PVP and to reduce any kind of grind to give it all out within the chapter or by BUYING them thru the store. But, PVE is quite different. PVE is made for players to spend TIME playing it, building up their INDIVIDUAL characters and their titles. Character B shouldn't have titles character A has just because character A got the titles. Some things are account based in PVE and that's Anets decision, but, if you notice they didn't and I doubt ever will make ALL the PVE titles account based. Obviously for you you can't let that sink in. You feel because they did it with a few titles they should do it for all. Welp guess it just doesn't work that way huh? Since they haven't implemented any changes as far as the rest of the titles go to be account based. Guess you lose.

Do you Farm?
i Consider FArming grinding and no doubt about it does it give people that farm an advantage over those who don't

because i spent ages grinding on one char to get some X (MAx Armour,perfect weps) should other chars get X too?

if i play through the game and fail a few missions while another guy that farmed hours gets ran through the game, doesnt that give him a bonus?

some people find a campaign a grind (i.e. diggings-orchad), if i did it one one character shouldn't my others be past it too?

Grind is differant in everyones opinion imo.
1 who likes farming may not like a campaign (and Vice Versa)
1 who likes pvp may not like pve (and Vice Versa)

/notsigned

PvE titles are supposed to represent individual accomplishment of a character. I do understand it can be frustrating sometimes having to grind for those titles on multiple characters. I have 10 of them myself. As already stated by others, new or low level characters shouldn't be given instant high title bonuses when they didn't even earn them on that certain character.

Making grind titles account based will never happen, no matter how many people complain about it. Period.

Then I guess we have to make Lucky/Unlucky and Friend of Kurzicks/Luxons char-based.

Lookie here, we have our own Guru-ish oracle!

And they will still have the goals of the other PvE titles. But how is grinding for stat boosts a fair system in respect to the player with limited playing time who is bored with the grinding areas ?

People will grind for vanity if you remove the stat boosts. But if you keep the stat boosts then you have the situation where a skilled player could be worse at the game than a useless player who spent ages grinding up the stats, simply because the skilled player hasn't got the stats required. So why is this a good situation ?
Why shouldn't they have an end ?

And if they shouldn't have an end, why do the NF, Factions and GW:EN storylines all end by you killing the creature that is spawning the creatures that are causing the trouble ?

With their leader dead, the minions stop causing trouble.
Sure Treasure Hunter and Wisdom come from normal play. But if you don't like the correct areas, you won't be earning any of the titles that boost PvE only skills from normal play.
Except that Lucky and Unlucky are already account based, while the effects from Treasure Hunter and Wisdom are nothing compared to the combat effects of other titles.
And can you explain why the Wisdom title only rewards one character when, if someone is focusing it on only one character, all their characters took part by acquiring the golds ?
Then why haven't you made a thread asking for Lucky and Unlucky to be made character based ?
Probably because they just copied what all the other MMO's were doing and assuming it to be the best option.
I'm trying to get ANET to change it. Unless you can show where ANET has said that this change will not happen, all your saying is that we shouldn't do this change because it hasn't been done.
No. I feel that the grind based titles should be account based because they show nothing in the way of skill, but instead are very time consuming. So if a player is put the time in, why shouldn't they get the reward ?

Nope, I have too much gold anyway from normal play because I don't really like the expensive skins.
The perfect weapons and armor are easily affordable without grinding, unless you want one in a fancy skin. But the fancy skin doesn't give any advantage over the crafter skin.
Yes it does get a bonus to the player that got ran through. But once you get to the point they also reached, they have no stat advantage over you.
Yes, parts of the NF campaign are slow. But when you do them once on a character, you don't have to do them again to get stat boosts.

And why is this current state of things good when the titles only show a time investment, not skill ?
Why not when the bonuses come from a process that doesn't show much in the way of skill ?
What proof do you have for this statement ?

A good knowledge of game history and the ability to use that to predict future events, prehaps.

Like AN saying that GW is all about skill > time history? Yeah, good memories.

[QUOTE]i think this right here is one of the main reasons poeple backfire at you for saying that.

they remember all those endless farmer posts opposing Anet at every step Anet has made so the casual player has more access to the nicer things at less time/gold spent.

typical earlier farmer post is make them earn it and if they are not willing or able to invest the time/effort/grind to earn it they dont deserve it.

we are telling that exact same crowd if you cant take the time and effort to earn it on that character you dont deserve it.

because they chose to use the storage so as to concentrate the benefit on one character

there was some idiot on another site/forum/thread a while ago that said he/she saw a chest they wanted to open but since the character they were using had a slightly worse chance of breaking the lockpick they were FORCED to skip the chest

that isnt playing the game that is desparation money maker

note that titles were put in for the specific purpose of giving a goal and killing massive amounts of time .

making them accounts defeats that purpose and ANET made a decision on each before adding it.

i doubt they will change imo

SEE ABOVE time consumption is their very purpose

why are they called *GRIND* titles except they are MEANT to take time

For all you grind freaks out there.

If you played more than one character wouldn't you want to show off all the monotony you've suffered, as opposed to just the grind on one character?

And if you only play one character, wouldn't you like to try something different, and not be penalised for it?

Im sure the op didn't say anything about making titles easier to attain, the suggestion was only a change to the mechanics by which they may be attained.

Firstly fair play for defending your idea so well shows how strongly you feel about it^^

But if you played through the game normally, dungeons,VAnquishihg,quests etc. you'd eventaully reach that point by just playing. it'd take longer just like if you collected money through the game normally. i.e. i havent farmed or tried to farm deldrimer yet and i have rank 5 (26k) didnt take part in the bonus faction weekend i just finished the game and did some dungeons.(still onyl a small bit completed) and i did not hand in any book of dungeons or quests.
More Money-> More SKills
meaning greater variety in build, chance to buy elite tomes, i.e. monk in desolation using elite tome to get SoJ, money made might. so he has better stats in one sense then another for 55-ing. (know you said armour and weapons just tought i'd put skills in)

Runes also help, sup vigor is an example,
( health may not be a big differance but more money= more health and better stats just like the extra few energy the asuran title gives. all ruens are like that +3 fire > +1 Fire, albeit for a differance of 75 health but still.


But its the process of doing the action, if i substituted the senario of a few missions ran to points farmed it would look like this imo:

MAy not be the best example, put code in because didn't want people saying its a misquote..

Isn't the main idea about getting rid of grind? i may find that an awful grind those few missions,( then then dzagonur and grand court and happy,greatest missions ever) yes but if i got the title on one char i wouldnt have to do them again either to get stats boost...sorry don't really understand.


Yes but if they were accoutn wide imo thats 4-9 times as many characters that would would have the title then if it was char based.
also lv.3 preseerers having the title maxed undervalues it,yes it is based on grind but what you consider grind may very form person to person

Its not like ppl can play all 9 of their characters at once -_-??? how is that a problem...the No of accounts with the titles remains the same.
and geez... did you read the first part of my post??
I can't see how the titles would be devalued/made easier. If you maxed it across nine characters, you wouldn't b able to show it.. but if you grinded that same amount under the account based titles system, you could show off 9X the grind??? DOESN"T that make you grind hounds happy?????

Okay, so there are incorrigible ale hounds in pre-sear, but surely workable? Whats been proposed here the removal of hugely limiting shackles on the way that we all play the game. Surely it would be worth a slight modification to the small demographic drunktard titles obtained in pre-searing?

this argument and others of the same vein i respond to by this (which is what me and others have been trying to explain since day one) :

SOURCE : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...49#post3270349

and also this thread :
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10212136

in which the vast majority of players state stuff along the lines of "we don't care about other peoples titles"

contradicting the masses of "this will provoke discrimination" statements in this thread.


nope. account based titles would be a good thing and thats all there is to it really.

let me spell it out.

-Grind already exists.
-Only a SMALL proportion of people CARE about other people titles.
-There is no Difference between grinding for items, cash to obtain attribute/hp/energy/etc boosting and grinding for a title.
-Individual accomplishments reflect the PLAYER.

NOPE, that is ONLY YOUR OPINION, you do not represent the majority of the GW community to make that into a statement. it is still undecided if it is good, it could be bad, maybe very bad, THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS HERE FOR.

now now dont get your panties in a twist, i'm posting in a thread yeah? I'm using it as intended ok?

i'm at LEAST backing it up with some substance.

Backup DOES NOT equal true.

For below post: didn't say i am correct, didn't claim my statements is true, I state reasons why I think this proposal is unacceptable, and i did not say LOOK HERE, GRIND IS GOOD YOU SHOULD ACCEPT IT, now did I, I just don't want Anet to change what we have now. Also am trying to prevent anyone from input-ing their bias views and making statements like its true when its not.

no backup doesn't equal true either....
anyway /signed.

You tell em Pumkin Pie. Plus I don't think the rattlings of one forum poster dedicated to refuting anyone else's opinion but his own is going to have any effect on the Anet developers for change. They obviously made the grinding titles grinding titles for a reason. A TIME KILLER. For me and many others it's FUN to grind for titles. It's FUN having an ADVANTAGE over those that don't grind for titles or don't have the TIME to grind for titles. When I look at them though only a handful really give any ADVANTAGE and those are Sunspear, Lightbringer, Treasure Hunter, Wisdom and Lucky/Unlucky titles. I' also glad Anet put these into the game because they are the ones I myself focus on the most since I have the TIME everyday up to 16 hours a day if I want to focus on them. The question then becomes how MUCH of an advantage do they give me. Well, not all that much really since everyone can eventually get enough gold/plat to buy what they want and it doesn't mean that everyone should be equal in this aquisition of income. Why not start a petition against 55 monks/necro teams if you're going to complain about ADVANTAGES?? They've had an advantage since the game started in income and collection of ectos. Having maxed out Sunspear and Lightbringer just makes you more useful in areas where these are helpful, it really doesn't mean you are a better player, but, they are not something that every character you have should get just because you got it with one particular character. Neither should Treasure Hunter and Wisdom titles or Gladiator, though I think Gladiator is account based, but, that's because it falls under PVP and most things in PVP and Special Events are account based. But, PVP is not the main majority form of gameplay not like PVE is. PVE should always remain different and have unlimited goals to accomplish. That's why Anet should NEVER change these individual character titles that we have now to account based.

what?

its my statement. its my opinion. i back my opinion with DATA, not some airy theoretical argumentation, nevertheless its an opinion.

Ill damm well INPUT my views here if i want, you can say they are wrong or whatever but at the end of the day....wheres your data? how are you backing it up? by saying that people who don't fall in line with your cohorts views are what...just wrong yeah?

Red Sonja, punctuation and paragraphs are your friends.

you say 55monks, I say Loot scaling. everyone was talking about it a while ago.

you say fun, i agree its about FUN. Fun for most people means playing the game not staring at some numbers crawl up some abstract ladder. If all you want is grind ....well go on! GRIND!!!!! grind for Gold!, Grind for items! ITS THE SAME MECHANISM. Insisting on forcing it on others is a tad strange though.

clearly some people find comfort in repeating the same actions over and over and over again. fine, for all i care you could do it for 24 hours straight,but just because you find it awesome does not mean that we find it even remotely interesting OR stimulating.

Apart from some fraction of the playerbase finding grind "fun" there is no REASON for it to be imposed on the majority.

don't make statements like that then thank you very much.

happy days!

edit. pointless conversation.

please, continue making a farce of everything that constitutes a debate.

How is me pointing out that the statement you made falsely turn into me making a farce of debate:

for above post: definition of debate

Didn't know we are debating, since you say debate, you probably should know as an opposition I have to point out when my opposition make a false statements. What do you expect? Want me to just let you win the debate without a rebuttal?

The reason I left this thread>

There isnt a debate going on anymore. This thread has become nothing more getting your head bitten off it you disgree and dont sign it. Certain peple arent posting valid counter arguements and are just bashing anyone who might speak against them.

But the number of Chars with the title is vastly increased.
i.e. The Un/Lucky and faction title tracks, there account wide yet i treat them as nothing, as since there account wide i just thorw em on my lv.1 that i just made and i play the game, if i could put a amx title on my lv.1 while i play that'd be nice adn seeing everyone walk around with that title in shing jea and kamadan that'd be nice....but it devalues the title alot....

and becomes 9 times devalued when accoutn wide....
IF the 4 eotn titles become accoutn based thats 4 points to KoBD (holds some value but no where near what it used have) so any protector title will get you KoBG, undervalue again.

The FAme RAnk is an example of this, i could classify this title as Grind, others may not thats their opinion, since its account iwde (for good reason) but seeing every 2nd person bambi in towns (seen it in pre) undervalues it,cool first time but after that meh

How Many people do you know that got any "Grind Based" title maxed more then once?
people get it once for the title and thats more or less it, they may get a high rank on other chars but doubtful that they'dmax it out more then 2 times.

Not sayign it woudln't be convieniat for some but it really cuts down on the potential game time imo

Spending the grind for vanity items is one thing because they don't effect your stats. But given that Guild Wars started off with player skill being more important that time spent playing and every time ANET has changed it people have complained.
So why is it a good thing that the title only rewards one of the characters, when the others are the ones that actually do all the work ?
So alter the points required for each rank and then you still have an identical time investment, but the benefits are spread around.
And why is it a good thing that the grinding directly effects a players stats, and therefore their ability to complete things ?


But what about the players who don't enjoy the areas that give the points ?
On my characters I get all their primary profession skills, and only get secondary skills as I plan to use them (or for UAX). So far I have never had to farm gold to buy a skill. Sometimes I didn't have enough skill points, but once I got them I also had enough gold.
Yes, rune prices are an area where your stats are effected by time spent playing, not your skill. It could do with some tweaking
The difference is that when doing the missions, you are only doing each mission once. For grinding up the points you are repeating an identical task multiple times.
But when you made a new character you knew that you would have to repeat the missions, so there isn't really anything to complain about here. Unlike characters that were made before the grind-based stat boosts were added.
Why is that a bad thing ?
When a lot of players simply don't care about what title other people wear, I don't see much devaluation happening. And ANET can always alter the points required for each rank to keep the value the same.


So what kind of bad things might this bring about ?
But a person who backs up their argument with evidence is in a better position than a person who doesn't because you then have to either show the evidence is wrong or irrelevant just to bring him back down to the same position as the person without evidence.


And why is this a bad thing ?
Even when other players simply don't care about your title ?
Even if ANET greatly increases the grind required per level of the title ?
Unless ANET increases the points required per rank. Though that would probably cause all the people with a single character to complain about having their grind increased, unless they are people who actually enjoy grinding.

sure.

on one side we have people are presenting facts. on the other you have people saying "its like that" because they "know" its so.

you can refute all you want. but if theres no logic, hard evidence or substance behind it, just torturous complicated "gut feeling" explanations of how a mmorpg should be then...ok.

Its about as much of a "debate" as you can get between some dude that just wants to get on the tube and a book waving weirdo ranting about "gateways to hell".

I have 4 millions GW players backing me up who isn't complaining about the way the game is now as oppose to you theres 1 and (rough estimate of person signing this) maybe 20 other who think they should have all the title for free.

let see, hrmz 3,999,979 (could be wrong here with the zeros, but i think its 6 for millions) players vs 21 signatory (rough estimates). enough backup?

edited: didn't see this part you said:
players simply don't care about what title other people wear is not an indication that ANET should make all grind base title account wide.

In my opinion, I do not care what title other players wear because I would go with them on any mission if and when I feel like it, not because of the title they wear. With the hardship in mind of getting title, you enjoy the moment when you actually see someone with max title. if you make the title account wide, You are going to start seeing them tomorrow all over the usual players hang out. I for one do not want to see that happens.

lol , there's one tiny problem, i don't agree.

there you go again with your FACTS, its not facts its your (lame) support materials.

um yeah.

being unsure if there are 6 zeros in a million followed by failed comprehension, flawed logic AND contradicting oneself in the same post is a bit disturbing.

clearly you are about a billion levels higher than me. I'm going to veeeerryy carefully back out of this conversation now.

When they made there character they knew that if they want an unnissicarly (spelling) rank in a title based on grind chances are they'd have to grind if they were very determined.

yeah, idont farm either, as i hate it... but that is my opinion, and you always having enough money works in your case but with 4 million copies of GW out the vast majority farm Alot and most of them are normally Low on Money, due to differant things.

FAiled gyala around 13 times when i first got there mostly due ot pugs... many people failed GoM,GoP Raisu and Hells many times and were sick of it (luckily got ot past em on 2nd try), These missions take 20 min each, and are Mandatory to continue with the story.
BTW i find that missions are one of the High points of GW,really like most of them. They're just a good example imo.

I Finished NF with rank 6 LB, and Gwen with rank 3 or somthing like that in deldrimir, titles are not nessicary, you can complete the games grand without them, if you find that spending 5+ Hours or more will make a massive differance to 2 hours of the campaign left by all means go for it, it is a completly optional title that gives a tiny reward, i'm rank 5(/10) by just doign the campaign and maybe 4 dungeons

if 4 people had fow (a more or less grind based armour,unless your lucky) that'd be impessive, but if 9 had it, thats +125% increase in the amount of peopel with FoW, so not as impressive as before.

If other people dont liek my title grand, but its what i think of it that matters,only i know what i went through to get it. i.e. when i fisrt saw rank3 bambi i tought woah, i must get that, in the next few days i saw a ton of peopel spamming it so it diluted the value a bit, also i suck at pvp as i figured out..but i tried HA well after that tho.




answered above a few lines

above
yeah if they increased the amount of points per title i would feel it is just (as i sad early in thread) But finding the new max limit would be a prob, i would think maybe 500,000 to max for account,(thats maxing it on 2 chars?) but seeing as i havent played in 3 weeks due to tech probs my view of the title is distorted and would be inaccurate as i have no idea of the work that goes into the title now, would 100,000 LB points be alot for account wide title?

and what effects would it have of BoaBD?

i an one of those such single chars, i use 1 char for titles, adn i have others that i paly for campaign, i'll only try adn get rep points for maybe 2 others as im thinking of making them 2nd mains. If the title was increased that'd be a ton of grind and i would feel peolpl woudl complain alot more as many woh have got there max grind titles would lose the max title and would have to grind more

Maybe this'll be a shocker for you, bu when I and many other people have created our characters there was absolutely no grind in GW and it didn't look like that there will ever be. Play Prophecies if you don't believe me.

i mean create them from present.
only joined 13 months ago so it was before my time but i heard about it.
but some people like to grind, some people don't your not forced to grind it jsut speeds it up dramatically,but it is a nice sized factor.

But it is an unnessicary title, can complete the game without it.


so you dis/agree with the rest?

I remember when i started playing i made money simply by selling normal materials because it was a lot of material to make ascetics tattoo to monks in Droknars (the most popular monk armor at the time i'd say).

Absolutely no grind? Lets see...

Skill points...
refund points...
Good weapons (no cheap greenies...oh man...remember when Vamp mods were really expensive!?)
UAX'ing...(remember when skill costs kept climbing with every purchase?)
Balthazar Faction...
Fame...

I dunno...looks like a lot of grind to me. Of course...if you enjoy it, and don't really notice it, it doesn't feel like a grind at all.

Oh running...why were people running the game? Why were they skipping large parts of the game? I dunno but for me...maguuma jungle is a fricking grind...ugh...stupid spiders.

Grind is optional however many people will force themselves(soon or later once they have nothing to do) to get higher kurzick/luxon/lightbringer/sunspear/asura/norn/deldrimor/ or ebonvanguard title rank to get more out of pve skills, because these are the only non-cosmetical and useful titles, or simply because many skills are weak at low rank or are not worth using until you get to higher ranks to open up more possibilities and people will do anything to achive this aim.

The question is how easy/hard wants anet make it and the problem is people with multiple characters are penalized or have a disadvantage.
a. you can make titles character based, what will happen ? people will do quest/dungeon runs with characters they play to fill books until there is no tomorrow.
High asura, deldrimor & vanquard rank for necro, same for ele, high sunspear, deldrimor & norn for dervish and so on.. different builds require different titles and thats a lot of work. This way you keep people playing for a long time, but its not the best way isn't it.
b. or you can make titles account based, people will still do a lot of quest/dungeon runs but they don't have to waste time to do all that crap again with another character and can spend more time to do something else they like in gw.

common sense says b. is better


edit: oh looks like I forgot about useless titles, Lucky/Unlucky, Survivor, Drunkard and similar titles should stay character based because it makes more sense this way, while title ranks like Asura, Deldrimor, Ebon Vanguard, Norn should be account based like Kurzick/Luxon, but its too late anyway.

Haha, you're comparing stuff like fame to shit like LB. It's obvious you have no idea whatsoever what's going on, but maybe you'll get someday. To help you, I prepared 2 questions. Does higher Hero rank make your skills better? And does higher [Lightbringer/Asura/Norn/Ebon Vanguar/Sunspear] make your skills better?

yar, pretty obvious.

Yes if you're a simpleton and have no drive to do things as intended by design. All I see is a few people who want to sit in the developers chair, but, didn't goto college to be able to do this. I see a few people who think because they spent a few dollars on a game that they deserve the right to make it like they want it. lolololololol Thankfully those guys at Anet did goto college and they know what is best for the ENTIRE community and not just a handful of forum hermits. )P

yeah, because there completly differant, 1 makes you use builds form wiki, and grind for days until you get the title while the other lets you farm repeatedly in pve...mm they are sort of the same...

and Human inteligence doesnt make it harder, just Xway to victory.
of corse that is imo of HA, Only really cared about when the odl favor system was active, didnt fow/uw just like seeing em, but now it means nothing.


Ahh,so i see why LB is useful, but the other one...mmm

You don't need LB/A/N/EV/SS skills to beat the game. You actually don't need them at all. You essentially need rank to get into an HA group. You people only want this so you can have KoaBD across 12 chars and satisfy your e-peen

You're the guy who constantly defends SP sins and says that they're not imba in the Gladiator's Arena. Nice work there

Attention Everyone: this guy has a lot of good ideas

so playing through prophecies for the fourth or fifth time with a different toon wouldnt be considered grind?

there has always been grind in this game.