My paragon's buddies

- Tain -

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

R/

TNtF imo.. you don't need the extra adren for SY!, and with this build you aren't using adren for anything else. So SoF is almost strictly just there for damage, and would not contribute enough to the build to steal the TNtF spot.

Ghostcell

Ghostcell

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

=VX9=

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
TNtF imo.. you don't need the extra adren for SY!, and with this build you aren't using adren for anything else. So SoF is almost strictly just there for damage, and would not contribute enough to the build to steal the TNtF spot. all right thanks

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

sooo, if i only have 1 paragon hero (so far) what should it's setup be?

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
sooo, if i only have 1 paragon hero (so far) what should it's setup be? I'd be inclined to drop the Stunning Striker and replace with a BHA / Volley Ranger.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
I'd be inclined to drop the Stunning Striker and replace with a BHA / Volley Ranger. That would probably be best since Dazed wins life.

Mickey

Mickey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Eternal Insight

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
That would probably be best since Dazed wins life. Has this been dubbed Ractohway yet?

Ghostcell

Ghostcell

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

=VX9=

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
Has this been dubbed Ractohway yet? most ppl just call it godmode

thejerk

thejerk

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejerk
Tried this build in frostmaw without much success. I got to level 5 but I was dying a lot. I know I am prolly screwing it up. I brought both ranger hench, menhlo, and herta. Any modifications to this build that I am not considering? I wanna do it w/o too much DP and no cons. The dam frostmaw comes up and takes off too much damage with wurm bile and assorted necro skills. Heroes/hench always manage to get a nice sized dp cause they are stupid. Maybe I am not pulling/flagging properly. Keep this in mind that I tried this in nm. Any answers on this?

- Tain -

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

R/

I don't remember having any trouble with Frostmaw, but I could imagine that the AI behavior could cause issues. The KD's, along with armor-ignoring Wurm Bile and FoC are all aoe, so the clumped hench are nice targets. I'd consider bring a Ward of Stability (helps vs the mandragors as well), and either another monk hench or some hex removal on heroes (Expel/Empathic, or inspired/revealed hex work well on wurm bile).

thejerk

thejerk

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

Finally beat it. Used a n/rit healer with recuperation (instead of Hayda) I threw well of blood on the derv, and the Hex build on Morghan. I took pain inverter and it owned whatever it hit. Thanks guys. Now I need to know if I could Hero/Hench the 4 subosses and Duncan. What should I watch out for more conditions or hexes. Can I do this in nm w/o cons? or do I need them. Anybody have any advice on this I would appreciate them.

randomperson

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

I've done Rand/Thommis and Selve with this setup in NM, henchway just using the anti-DP consumables. I assume the rest can be done. Make sure to micro hex removal on yourself for soothing images and target the dreamers first because they are the ones using it.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Consumables make anything win, so its a matter of how good u win with concies.

~Super Igor ~

psycore

psycore

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Tried this out vanqing in tyria, doesn;t work so well vs losaru with the healers. Even 3 vs 6 the damage output is so low the losaru healer can outheal all the damage done.

Works great vs the hydra though but so frustrating when you cant put a 4 legs down even with the target pain inverted.

randomperson

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Umm what? You have 3+ physicals (should be making that to 4 in a 6-man team tbh) and an orders, looks like you're doing it wrong. Also pain inverter is a waste of your PvE slots for this.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycore
Tried this out vanqing in tyria, doesn;t work so well vs losaru with the healers. Even 3 vs 6 the damage output is so low the losaru healer can outheal all the damage done.

Works great vs the hydra though but so frustrating when you cant put a 4 legs down even with the target pain inverted. The Losaru Bladehands have 2 stances that are anti-melee and their healers have Protective Spirit and Reversal of Fortune.

To handle mobs like that, one solution is to go for conditions and degen hexes, but watch out as their mesmers have backfire and diversion.

Paragons may synergize well with one another, but having a team of spear chunking Paragons also means they all have the same weaknesses like blocking, blind, anti-physical hexes, no enchant removal, etc. So, if you want to use this build, you have to be prepared to adapt around all these weaknesses.

psycore

psycore

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomperson
Umm what? You have 3+ physicals (should be making that to 4 in a 6-man team tbh) and an orders, looks like you're doing it wrong. Also pain inverter is a waste of your PvE slots for this. No, looks like your reading comprehension is wrong.

This particular team build as mentioned by the poster above me does not work vs certain enemy groups they can counter most if not all of the damage making the entire setup useless.

And PI is very invaluable with taking down elementalists and the crystal desert is crawling with them.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
To handle mobs like that, one solution is to go for conditions and degen hexes, but watch out as their mesmers have backfire and diversion. is this 2005? degen sucks, same reason regen sucks, its slow. and if those conditions arent DW, Weakness, dazed or blind you had better be kidding.

Antithesis

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Paragons may synergize well with one another, but having a team of spear chunking Paragons also means they all have the same weaknesses like blocking, blind, anti-physical hexes, no enchant removal, etc. So, if you want to use this build, you have to be prepared to adapt around all these weaknesses. Stunning Strike, Spear of Redemption, Swift Javelin, Wild Throw, Anthem of Guidance, Empathic Removal, Expel Hexes, Remove Hex, Song of Purification, ... yep, Paragons are weak. I've gone through all campaigns never once using enchant removal, it's a non-issue but if you need it, how about Rip Enchantment.

Avatar Exico

Avatar Exico

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Way to Cold at Home:Illnois and School:Iowa.

We Trip Hard On [AcID]

N/

Ya that why must have Support Paragon somewhere to help Spear Chunking Paragons get rid of those weaknesses.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Stunning Strike, Spear of Redemption, Swift Javelin, Wild Throw, Anthem of Guidance, Empathic Removal, Expel Hexes, Remove Hex, Song of Purification, ... yep, Paragons are weak. I've gone through all campaigns never once using enchant removal, it's a non-issue but if you need it, how about Rip Enchantment. I am definitely not saying Paragons are weak. I love my Paragon.

But every build has its strengths and weaknesses. If you use a build it is useful to know what they are so you can adjust it according to your area. A team of 3 Paragons (including the Paragon character), using only Paragon offensive skills, tend to carry similar strengths and weaknesses on each of them. The D/N is a pure support character that is set to avoid combat.

Another weakness the default build has is a lack of AoE attacks (e.g. Splinter Weapon), even though it has strong single target attacks. This means Reversal of Fortune and Protective Spirit can be a pain.

Rip Enchantment is fine, even at low level curse, it still removes the enchantment, which is what you really need most of the time. Personally, I think enchant removal is useful enough to be built in. I remember when I first tried the default build against the Charrs in HM Dalada Uplands just outside Doomlore Shrine, the 2 Charr Flameshielders that cast Aegis in the group gave me grief and being cursed with Faintheartedness (with Suffering to cover from Emphatic) was a pain too.

If you want to use this build you need to know how to adjust it according to what you are fighting, you cant use it as universally as you can with sabway, without tweaking. Even Rac uses necro heroes sometimes to get past problematic areas. I use a N/Rt to replace the D/N sometimes too:

[skill]Order of Pain[/skill][skill]Dark Fury[/skill][skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill][skill]Mark of Fury[/skill][skill]Vampiric Spirit[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill]

Template: OAhkQoG7RIqjhYSgx2dQ1ZWVN5C

Vampiric Spirit requires a little micro-management to cast it for the hero but it lasts 16s so it is not that much of a pain, especially if you bind it to a key. Otherwise replace it with Reaper's Mark or Icy Veins if you prefer those.

Replacing my D/N with my N/Rt also decreases the healing alittle, but it is nothing that cant be covered by bringing Lina, along with Mhenlo, for my trips.

Madeentje

Madeentje

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

Belgium

Me/

Isn't Mark of fury a little redundant with all that adrenaline already flowing around.
Also why do you use vampiric spirit, icy veins has lots of damage + aoe...

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitjeeuuhh
Isn't Mark of fury a little redundant with all that adrenaline already flowing around.
Not really. The hero doesn't always cast Dark Fury like clock-work especially when being attacked or chased around. Remember the strongest defense this build has is SY! from the Paragon character, in this sense it has a single point of failure so having the adrenaline pumping consistently is important.

Quote: To the posters above this means anything suggested should probably not use EOTN skills, not just PvE only skills.

Quote:
Also why do you use vampiric spirit, icy veins has lots of damage + aoe... Rac's D/N is able to self heal since DF and OOP both require a hefty life sacrifice, my N/Rt can't which is why I tried vampiric spirit to reduce the pressure from monks. Left to herself, the hero tends to only cast vampiric spirit when she is low on hp, so some manual micro-management would help.

By the way, Rac's posted necro builds use Icy Veins but he was still tweaking them:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=126

..he also uses Blood Renewal for self heal. I dont really like Blood Renewal on a hero as they tend to over sac themselves but you can try that if you prefer.

randomperson

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycore
No, looks like your reading comprehension is wrong.

This particular team build as mentioned by the poster above me does not work vs certain enemy groups they can counter most if not all of the damage making the entire setup useless.

And PI is very invaluable with taking down elementalists and the crystal desert is crawling with them. Warriors with riposte and shield stance shouldn't be a problem because as a physical team, you should be attacking the casters.

PS and RoF are far less of a problem to physical teams than caster teams, because you wouldn't expect to be attacking for huge chunks of damage at a time.

Pain inverter is nice to blow something up (although you say this isn't happening anyway) every 20 seconds, but I'd rather take the ward and have my whole team hit for +15~.

Finally, what wasn't mentioned was SoD on the monks... but this can be easily solved by target switching. Your physicals are ranged and it's the easiest prot in the game to see put on a target.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomperson
Warriors with riposte and shield stance shouldn't be a problem because as a physical team, you should be attacking the casters.

PS and RoF are far less of a problem to physical teams than caster teams, because you wouldn't expect to be attacking for huge chunks of damage at a time.

Pain inverter is nice to blow something up (although you say this isn't happening anyway) every 20 seconds, but I'd rather take the ward and have my whole team hit for +15~.

Finally, what wasn't mentioned was SoD on the monks... but this can be easily solved by target switching. Your physicals are ranged and it's the easiest prot in the game to see put on a target. Physical teams can have a higher DPS than caster teams and I think Rac's default build has good damage. The problem with physical teams is there are many ways to shut them down.

SoD has a short recharge, target switching may help alittle but it is a far cry from being "easily solved" especially when you have PS and RoF too. Switching target also forces you to switch away from the monk, so it runs counter to your first sentence and allows them to heal/regen back your damage.

In other words, I still think that having enchant removal would be more effective in this situation.

randomperson

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Yeah, some strips would be good. After all, this is build wars and PvE is certainly easier to buildwars .

I don't think that you should have to switch to attacking warriors if the monk SoD's themselves though, unless you've already killed some of the group.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycore
Tried this out vanqing in tyria, doesn;t work so well vs losaru with the healers. Even 3 vs 6 the damage output is so low the losaru healer can outheal all the damage done.

Works great vs the hydra though but so frustrating when you cant put a 4 legs down even with the target pain inverted. I haven't vanquished all of Tyria just yet (crystal desert, ascalon and the snake's dance trek to go) so I haven't had a chance to go against the Losaru groups just yet. Although it does sound like hexes would be a stronger approach. The other option would just be to constantly change targets whenever SoD goes up, unless the groups are composing entirely of Bladehands and Lifebands. But really that would be too much of a hassle, casters would be stronger.

EDIT: I started to vanquish, router died so I couldn't finish but one Spear Swipe on Hayda instead of Mending Refrain (the 15 seconds annoys me) and it was pretty easy.

natural sugar

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

I didn't see any codes in the thread, so here are the codes for the builds:

[build name="SY! Player" prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Command=6+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Vicious Attack][Swift Javelin][Focused Anger]["For Great Justice!"]["There's Nothing to Fear!"]["Save Yourselves!" (Kurzick)][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Aggressive Refrain][/build]

[build name="Orders" prof=D/N Mysticism=10+1+1 WindPrayers=11+1 BloodMagic=10][Arcane Zeal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Mystic Healing][Vow of Piety][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention][Dwayna's Touch][/build]

[build name="Morgahn Main" prof=P/W Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Vicious Attack][Stunning Strike][Anthem of Envy][Anthem of Flame][Hexbreaker Aria][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Morgahn Hex" prof=P/Mo Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Wild Throw][Swift Javelin][Anthem of Flame][Hexbreaker Aria][Empathic Removal][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Morgahn 4-Man" prof=P/W Leadership=10+2 Command=8+1 Motivation=0+1 SpearMastery=12+1+1][Blazing Spear][Vicious Attack][Spear Swipe][Anthem of Envy][Anthem of Flame][Angelic Bond][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Hayda Main" prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Command=0+1 Motivation=10+1+1 SpearMastery=10+1][Wild Throw][Spear of Redemption][Merciless Spear][Aria of Zeal][Song of Purification][Mending Refrain][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

[build name="Hayda Hex" prof=P/Mo Leadership=11+1 Command=0+1 Motivation=10+1+1 SpearMastery=10+1][Wild Throw][Merciless Spear][Hexbreaker Aria][Aria of Zeal][Empathic Removal][Mending Refrain][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

I've only really tried Morgahn's main build (which seems okay), still checking out the others on my paragon and warrior.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

plz plz plz add that (^^) to the op!

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Added, thanks Natural Sugar.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Might want to change out the mending refrain and probably hexbreaker aria if you found that they are kind of obsolete.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

not really...

~Super Igor ~

zling

zling

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

what about people like me who dont have EotN? I have all the other campaigns.
is it possible to adjust this build?
I wont have 2 Paragons nor Ebon Standard of Honour. that's all I seem to be missing. oh and a few spear attacks maybe but that isnt a biggie...
wondering which hero could replace Hayda.
also could I run a different SY spammer like Warrior or Dervish instead of the Paragon? or perhaps but SY on my Ranger

shru

shru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by zling
also could I run a different SY spammer like Warrior or Dervish instead of the Paragon? or perhaps but SY on my Ranger [SY Derv;OgGjUNpMLTGFNXxgygibXFxX9gA][build name="SY War" prof=W/P swordsmanship=12+1+1 strength=12+1][Dragon Slash][brawling Headbutt][Steelfang slash][Save yourselves][flail][for great justice][enduring harmony][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
and for ranger, idk, this should work well:[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1+1 expertise=12+1][Barrage][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][for great justice][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes][/build]
with no EotN maybe these->
[build name="SY War" prof=W/P swordsmanship=12+1+1 strength=12+1][Dragon Slash][Save yourselves][flail][enraging charge][lion's comfort][for great justice][enduring harmony][sunspear rebirth signet][/build][build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1+1 expertise=12+1][Barrage][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][for great justice][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]

toying around with ranger again:
[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1 expertise=12+1+1][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][flail][expert's dexterity][for great justice][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
edit: looked like it just might work on paper, but I wasn't able to handle energy cost. Even through careful use of skills and zealous bow I found myself just using just triple shot and d shot. I'll have to drop dual shot for another skill, going to go test some out now.

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

I would use rapid fire with BHA if you wanted to spam SY! on a ranger.

XDeadboltX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by shru
toying around with ranger again:
[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1 expertise=12+1+1][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][flail][expert's dexterity][for great justice][sunspear rebirth signet][/build] I use [prepared shot] to counter the energy cost on my ranger. [needling shot] isnt bad either for some quick adrenaline since it only costs 2 adren. I use it while triple and dual are recharging, instead of the res. [rapid fire] preparation instead of flail, or [Expert Focus]

shru

shru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by XDeadboltX
I use [prepared shot] to counter the energy cost on my ranger. [needling shot] isnt bad either for some quick adrenaline since it only costs 2 adren. I use it while triple and dual are recharging, instead of the res. [rapid fire] preparation instead of flail, or [Expert Focus] Dual and Triple shot are not energy intensive by themselves with a good investment in expertise, but the point of that build was to use Expert's Dexterity to be able to spam them with a 3 second recharge. That with dark fury and FGJ means a perma SY with relative ease.

But the problem I face is that with Expert’s Dexterity, the only energy skill I can use on my bar becomes triple shot. (It costs 11 energy at 14 exp, and 8 with a zealous bow) Spamming that every 3-4 seconds ends up at costing 4-6 energy regen, throwing that build completely out the window.

The Barrage build, on the other hand, does work with a zealous bow, and can maintain SY fairly effectively. And I've been toying with other various ideas, but as far as I can see, with atleast 13 in expertise, a build that has [skill]Triple shot[/skill] [skill]dual shot[/skill] [skill]FGJ[/skill] [skill]dark fury[/skill] should be able to maintain SY as a ranger.

Edit:
After toying around, this build wrecks with Racthoh's hero setup:[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1 expertise=12+1][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][Glass Arrows][for great justice][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes][/build]There's no energy problems (I used a zealous bow, but it works with vamp too), the damage is great, SY is up 95% of the time (enemies dodging can screw you, so pick a target that's not likely to move much), and it has decent survivability being in the midline with Lightning Reflexes up 2/3 of the time.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zling
what about people like me who dont have EotN? I have all the other campaigns.
is it possible to adjust this build? Losing the second paragon hurts because it is a powerful profession, in addition to losing the ebon battle standard. In that spot I'd use either a Broadhead Arrow ranger, curses necro (Weaken Armor and Barbs helps the loss from EBSHonor), or even just a warrior/dervish hero. Melee heroes can work, just not that well in areas with lots of AoE or really big mobs that risk bodyblocking the idiots.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Although I like this team build, I am still considering replacing one of the Paragon heroes, with Sab's MM. Don't minions synergize with Paragon shouts to provide more energy back too? Besides all that body blocking and damage soaking goodness?

I also like Gfte which should affect minions too. Maybe a MM with some points into curse would be useful.

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

As far as I know only GtfE affects minions.

Most of the other paragon shouts trigger when you use a skill.

DarkSpirit

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardt
As far as I know only GtfE affects minions.

Most of the other paragon shouts trigger when you use a skill. Also, wouldn't the energy returned from Paragon shouts be greater? With more energy, you can also use TNTF more often right? Being able to use TNTF more often, would be the main purpose of throwing in a MM+Gfte. The side benefits are also nice.

Furthermore, if you have Barbs, Weaken Armor, or Splinter Weapon from among your heroes, wouldn't those help the minions too as well as yourself as a paragon?