I don't understand what people are talking about.
People are saying if LS is taken out the expencive skins would become more expencive. Thats simply not true, they would cost more gold but the gold would be worth less. The actuall "cost" remains constant
Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?
JeniM
Gli
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
STOP playing the "play the game" card all the time already. Pls let people play the game how they want to ehm kay.
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
It's certainly not true that farming or doing vanquish / elite-missions / doa isn't profitable. Nobody is saying that. But without LS it would be even more profitable for both normal play + farming.
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
LS + IDS were set in motion vs Botters. If practically no botters are there ,why do we need to limit our income?
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Originally Posted by JeniM
People are saying if LS is taken out the expencive skins would become more expencive. Thats simply not true, they would cost more gold but the gold would be worth less. The actuall "cost" remains constant
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FoxBat
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
But without LS it would be even more profitable for both normal play + farming.
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mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
Do explain to me how removing LS would make normal-play (aka full team of 8) more profitable.
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Once more "IDS" aka "Insta Death Scaling" is one of the subroutines of lootscaling. Kill a lot of critters at the same time, get absolutely zilch.
This goes for 1/8 or 8/8 teams.
Remove LS, and hopefully IDS is removed too. Thus actually giving you the drops you deserve in 8/8 or 1/8.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Once more "IDS" aka "Insta Death Scaling" is one of the subroutines of lootscaling. Kill a lot of critters at the same time, get absolutely zilch.
This goes for 1/8 or 8/8 teams. |
The claim that it applies to full parties sounds completely wrong, but I will go about testing it, just as I tested solo loot scaling.
Shadowmere
economics...ick...but the thread's got my attention so here goes.
LS has greatly increased the worth of the gold coin, that's undeniable, player to player trades are in much smaller sums than before LS. However with everyone's income less and the gold coin having more worth it has had no affect on static priced items, mainly everything from merchants, skill trainers, armor and weapon crafters. This means 15k armor is that much harder to obtain for those saving for it, as compaired with before LS when income was much higher for the average player that 15k crafting price wasn't so intimidating. However the high end market still exists, mind you I don't really get into that, but it seems to me the obscene sums traded for super high end items would be simply excrutiating to earn in the current state. Seems like most of the trader's gold has been in currency before LS (pays to save I guess).
so...all in all, if I had to I'd /sign, but really I'd just prefer the static item prices be dropped to better suit the current value of the gold coin.
LS has greatly increased the worth of the gold coin, that's undeniable, player to player trades are in much smaller sums than before LS. However with everyone's income less and the gold coin having more worth it has had no affect on static priced items, mainly everything from merchants, skill trainers, armor and weapon crafters. This means 15k armor is that much harder to obtain for those saving for it, as compaired with before LS when income was much higher for the average player that 15k crafting price wasn't so intimidating. However the high end market still exists, mind you I don't really get into that, but it seems to me the obscene sums traded for super high end items would be simply excrutiating to earn in the current state. Seems like most of the trader's gold has been in currency before LS (pays to save I guess).
so...all in all, if I had to I'd /sign, but really I'd just prefer the static item prices be dropped to better suit the current value of the gold coin.
bhavv
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Originally Posted by Gli
Just a random remark I need to get off my chest:
I can't really imagine how some people posting here about how little gold they make, play the game. Myself, I can't seem to make less than 5k in 2 hours worth of 8 people play, ever. Spending a night (3-4 hours tops) playing with guildies, just helping each other do missions, or dungeons or whatever, I rarely end up with less than +10k in my storage. Selling a full inventory alone is an easy 2.5k, each and every time, and that's without accounting for special finds like runes and materials, which I tend to store until I have a spare moment to make up my mind about them. |
Yes I also make 5-10k everyday from full party play, which is enough for kits, scrolls and consumables. But I have very little left over to put towards the 1.6 Million I still need to buy enough sweets and booze to max my titles, also I need another million to max party animal. I cant make that much money with LS, but before LS I sad 500k in my storage which rapidly depleted and I couldnt remake it. I also want 4 chaos gloves.... That will never happen with LS and my inability to make enough money to buy some of the ectos, but I would lkie to have chaos gloves on all my Chars because I like them.
LS shafted me. If Anet want to have optional titles and high end content, Players that choose to pursue these should have an option to make the money for it if they want.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by Gli
And the people who don't farm at all will virtually lose all access to anything that doesn't have a fixed price, because they won't have any more gold than they have now, and as you said, it will be worth less in the player-player market.
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kartmaster
I'm still /signed because I enjoy farming, and why wouldn't I want as much reward as possible? If I can solo an area designed for 8 players, why should I not get all the rewards? LS basically boils down to a tax on farmers (and bots).
For those saying 15k armor and static items are relatively more expensive than they used to be for the casual player. I don't think it's so black and white.
Most casual players are likely to PUG or H/H a majority of the time. These people are getting EXACTLY the same amount of income they were before. It isn't going to be ANY harder to get 15k armor post LS than it was before for anyone who usually plays with a full party.
Static priced items HAVE gotten relatively more expensive for those who choose to solo a significant amount of time. Which is and always was what the outcry was all about.
Those who normally play with a full party should be FOR Loot Scaling, as it gives them more buying power in transactions that are market driven. While real prices of fixed goods have actually remained unchanged.
For those saying 15k armor and static items are relatively more expensive than they used to be for the casual player. I don't think it's so black and white.
Most casual players are likely to PUG or H/H a majority of the time. These people are getting EXACTLY the same amount of income they were before. It isn't going to be ANY harder to get 15k armor post LS than it was before for anyone who usually plays with a full party.
Static priced items HAVE gotten relatively more expensive for those who choose to solo a significant amount of time. Which is and always was what the outcry was all about.
Those who normally play with a full party should be FOR Loot Scaling, as it gives them more buying power in transactions that are market driven. While real prices of fixed goods have actually remained unchanged.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Yes I also make 5-10k everyday from full party play, which is enough for kits, scrolls and consumables. But I have very little left over to put towards the 1.6 Million I still need to buy enough sweets and booze to max my titles, also I need another million to max party animal. I cant make that much money with LS, but before LS I sad 500k in my storage which rapidly depleted and I couldnt remake it. I also want 4 chaos gloves.... That will never happen with LS and my inability to make enough money to buy some of the ectos, but I would lkie to have chaos gloves on all my Chars because I like them.
LS shafted me. If Anet want to have optional titles and high end content, Players that choose to pursue these should have an option to make the money for it if they want. |
Max sweet tooth/drunkard/party animal are not for everybody. It is supposed to be ridiculous to get that and FoW armor. We are talking about stuff that matters to the "casual" gamer, having enough to buy skills, basic armor, and weapons. Not have 1337 titles that are designed to show off that you have money.
NeHoMaR
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
And we all know the only reason Lootscaling was introduced, was because of these goldwebsites.
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Anyway, even when I ain't (wasn't) a hardcore farmer, farming is indeed fun, a lot of interesting builds I really miss. Not for the gold, just for the fun.
IMO gold is not needed in this game, I almost never need my gold ever, absolutely. Coincidentally the armors I normally like more are 1k ones, and any decent inscriptable weapon(s) is enough for me, specially because I use unpopular ones, so I am unique.
Is not that, ironically, what people is wanting to buy with gold? the uniqueness? I got it without gold!
Off topic: LOL, a lot of weird words I used in this thread, specially countin I am NOT english speaker ^_^
Eli Rela
it is catch 22, you want more 1337 items, so you need more gold, so you go to your friendly local gold seller store and buy it. LS were always something that gave more business to gold sellers.
So now with that backdoor closed (supposedly) Anet should let people get money legitimately in-game (via farming, trading or whatever you like) and remove LS.
so I signed again .. here:
/signed
So now with that backdoor closed (supposedly) Anet should let people get money legitimately in-game (via farming, trading or whatever you like) and remove LS.
so I signed again .. here:
/signed
Loviatar
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you top hardcore are complaining about prices going down and blaming LS.
then you claim getting rid of what you are blaming will keep the prices going lower instead of going back up?
NOTE THIS HARDCORE GOLD GRUBBERS
since early beta i have watched and enjoyed every 100 per cent consistant move by ANET to open the games nice stuff to their PLAYERBASE which is the casual person playing the game insteag of i have it you dont so i win.
ANET has not made a single change in favor of the elite hardcore farmer/trader who spends 6/8/10 hours a day who says if they are not dedicated enough like me they dont deserve to have nice stuff.
you are a very tiny elite splinter group that NCsoft/Anet s bottom line will never even notice if you all quit today.
LS will not be reversed or changed for the greed monkeys in my opinion.
going to see about a few more spiked minutes dancing to ale hound for now.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by Loviatar
so provably wrong
you top hardcore are complaining about prices going down and blaming LS. then you claim getting rid of what you are blaming will keep the prices going lower instead of going back up? NOTE THIS HARDCORE GOLD GRUBBERS since early beta i have watched and enjoyed every 100 per cent consistant move by ANET to open the games nice stuff to their PLAYERBASE which is the casual person playing the game insteag of i have it you dont so i win. ANET has not made a single change in favor of the elite hardcore farmer/trader who spends 6/8/10 hours a day who says if they are not dedicated enough like me they dont deserve to have nice stuff. you are a very tiny elite splinter group that NCsoft/Anet s bottom line will never even notice if you all quit today. LS will not be reversed or changed for the greed monkeys in my opinion. going to see about a few more spiked minutes dancing to ale hound for now. |
But alas those days are long gone. RL grind keeps me up at night The semi-rare skins will become perhaps a bit more expensive (nothing over night). But due to lack of LS you will have the financial means to buy it.
The real High End stuff maybe will in crease more dramatically. Then again, aquiring that money will be easier too.
Gli
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Yes I also make 5-10k everyday from full party play, which is enough for kits, scrolls and consumables. But I have very little left over to put towards the 1.6 Million I still need to buy enough sweets and booze to max my titles, also I need another million to max party animal.
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Well, here I got what I asked for. I can see how you wouldn't see a steady rise of your gold supply if you use scrolls and consumables. I don't think I ever spent gold on either of those.
Wild Karrde
/signed just because theres no reason to say no.
I didnt farm much to begin with but maybe Ill be able to take the extreme boredom of it a little easier if loot scaling is taken away.
Now all the crybabies who threw all the temper tantrums cause they couldnt get quite as filthy rich quite as easily before will be happy again. Im sure they will still find something to whine about but this should keep em happy for a bit.
I didnt farm much to begin with but maybe Ill be able to take the extreme boredom of it a little easier if loot scaling is taken away.
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Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops). Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them. Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them. |
Gli
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
The semi-rare skins will become perhaps a bit more expensive (nothing over night). But due to lack of LS you will have the financial means to buy it.
The real High End stuff maybe will in crease more dramatically. Then again, aquiring that money will be easier too. |
Lem
I disagree with this, lootscaling is a good thing and anyone who finds it hard to make money in the current system isn't trying hard enough.
not to mention without lootscaling you get hyper inflation in effect as there is far more gold in the system which prices casual players our of the market much more all over again. Any increase in the amount of gold in the bank for a hardcore player is purely a vanity of the number because their money would still be worth the same in relation to what you would be able to buy for it in most instances.
not to mention without lootscaling you get hyper inflation in effect as there is far more gold in the system which prices casual players our of the market much more all over again. Any increase in the amount of gold in the bank for a hardcore player is purely a vanity of the number because their money would still be worth the same in relation to what you would be able to buy for it in most instances.
Eli Rela
can we have a poll on this, as it is hard to tally atm, though majority here definitely in favor of LS removal.
Scary
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Originally Posted by Lem
I disagree with this, lootscaling is a good thing and anyone who finds it hard to make money in the current system isn't trying hard enough.
not to mention without lootscaling you get hyper inflation in effect as there is far more gold in the system which prices casual players our of the market much more all over again. Any increase in the amount of gold in the bank for a hardcore player is purely a vanity of the number because their money would still be worth the same in relation to what you would be able to buy for it in most instances. |
WHY o WHY... do "some" people think that... US.. WE... THE PvE players
want LS be gone just for the mony...
NOOOOO We, Us.. THE PvE players arnt interested in LOTS of mony...
We just wanna have the fun of the drops.. And not raoming miles and miles
and ask your self... Do I have a hole in my bag
xLeo
It's prolly around 95% (Against LS) : 5% (Supporting LS)
Abedeus
I say that 90% want LS gone.
bhavv
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
So.... you want several ridiculously expensive grind based titles and are ticked that they are expensive/take a long time to acomplish?
Max sweet tooth/drunkard/party animal are not for everybody. It is supposed to be ridiculous to get that and FoW armor. We are talking about stuff that matters to the "casual" gamer, having enough to buy skills, basic armor, and weapons. Not have 1337 titles that are designed to show off that you have money. |
I dont really care how the casual gamer plays, and LS wasnt put in the game to affect casual players, it was put in to deter bots and failed at that.
I was a casual player for my first 6 or 8 months too. I only played the campaign, cared little about high end armors and rare skins, but after a casual gamer finishes the game and they want to keep playing it what do they do? Farming was a great option, and incredibly fun for a lot of people. Just because you and a minority of players dont enjoy it, why should it be ruined for those that do? The game has titles which require money, not only the consumable ones, but Legendary Skill hunter requires just under 300k spent into cap sigs. The fact that we cant actually make enough money to fund for these titles if we want too makes LS fail. When they introduced LS, they should have halved the cost of Cap sigs, Consumables and other items at merchants, and not added in things with ridiculous costs like Chaos Gloves after LS was implenented.
Anet basically expect us to play a game, where people that are interested in the high end items are no longer able to make the money to fund for those things. If they want stuff like Consumable based titles, 1k costs for cap sigs and skills, and expensive gloves in Gwen, it should be possible for EVERYONE to be able to make money for this if they choose to do so.
At the end of the day it is a choice. Removing LS WOULD NOT affect the casual gamer in anyway, as you can complete the game without 15k armor or 100k+ rare skin Items. And you get perfect weapons when you finish the games for free. Temoving LS would just make farming more enjoyable for those that choose to do it.
Stolen Souls
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Originally Posted by Lem
I disagree with this, lootscaling is a good thing and anyone who finds it hard to make money in the current system isn't trying hard enough.
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I kinda agree with this. There seems to be a really thin line, between the gold not being accessable...and people just wanting to be lazy. :/
I really don't care to see 15k ectos and 100k + xxx golds again.
Gun Pierson
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Originally Posted by Gli
Trading will be so much fun! I can't wait to see more of those 100k + x ecto 'bargains', with ecto back at 15k+. That's just what the market needs to be more accessible to casual players.
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I wonder, can a casual player in a short amount of time buy chaos gloves with LS? Can he buy them without LS? My answer would be 'no' in both cases.
The removal of LS would give the casual player more gold to buy the basic stuff and more importantly more drops for collector's items. So all in all I think the casual player would benfit more from the removal of lootscaling than it would hurt him at this point.
Stolen Souls
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
I wonder, can a casual player in a short amount of time buy chaos gloves with LS? Can he buy them without LS? My answer would be 'no' in both cases.
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In a short amount of time, no. But they CAN get them. Why would a "casual" player be in a huge hurry, anyway? Just by saving, you CAN eventually get them. Hell, I did...
Eli Rela
we can estimate, unless you want to flip through all pages and count :-)
can a moderator insert a poll on top of this thread? or we have to create a new one?
can a moderator insert a poll on top of this thread? or we have to create a new one?
bhavv
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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
I kinda agree with this. There seems to be a really thin line, between the gold not being accessable...and people just wanting to be lazy. :/
I really don't care to see 15k ectos and 100k + xxx golds again. |
Lazy? Explain to me how it is possible to make profit from UW runs if you have to pay 1k for entry and only make 300g per run if I want to keep my ectos for myself.
Farming UW and FoW solo actually result in a loss of money, I also forget that that is where a lot of the money I make during the game gets spent into now.
Everytime I solo UW or Fow, I lose another 500-700 gold. Great game design. So how do we make money anymore?
Stolen Souls
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Lazy? Explain to me how it is possible to make profit from UW runs if you have to pay 1k for entry and only make 300g per run if I want to keep my ectos for myself.
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Farming UW NEVER caused me to lose money. Even with loot scaling, the 1k is made up for with the merch junk. Plus the ectos. Unless I just have good luck, and my experience is not typical. In which case, go me.
Lem
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Originally Posted by bhavv
Lazy? Explain to me how it is possible to make profit from UW runs if you have to pay 1k for entry and only make 300g per run if I want to keep my ectos for myself.
Farming UW and FoW solo actually result in a loss of money, I also forget that that is where a lot of the money I make during the game gets spent into now. Everytime I solo UW or Fow, I lose another 500-700 gold. Great game design. So how do we make money anymore? |
Again we are focussing on a minority aspect of the overall picture here, LS is not just about solo runs of UW and FoW.
creelie
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
But because without LS you earn more money through normal play, it will balance it. While giving you easier access to the Fixed priced Items.
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Gun Pierson
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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
In a short amount of time, no. But they CAN get them. Why would a "casual" player be in a huge hurry, anyway? Just by saving, you CAN eventually get them. Hell, I did...
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Stolen Souls
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Originally Posted by Gun Pierson
Yes ofcourse but I wonder, in what mode will he gets them faster, with or without LS? If without LS, it's more interesting for 'the e-peen elite' that LS stays.
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If you farm the gold to buy the ectos...my guess is it would take around the same amout of time, maybe a bit shorter without LS. Without LS you make more gold, but the price of everything also goes up. But again, this doesn't apply to "casual" players...as casual players are not interested in hardcore farming.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by creelie
Actually that's not true. Drops in normal play are exactly the same as before LS. ONLY people who play in less-than-max groups for the area are affected.
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. No I'm not explaining that again. Scroll back a couple of pages of the explanation >.>
creelie
Has IDS actually been statistically proven to exist? Link me to numbers or STFU.
ogre_jd
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Originally Posted by bhavv
The game has titles which require money, not only the consumable ones, but Legendary Skill hunter requires just under 300k spent into cap sigs.
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And there's another reason to keep loot scaling in: it seems to be annoying the "the titles exist so I must have every single one no matter what" crowd.
romeus petrus
/signed
Some of us used to enjoy solo farming. Some farm areas require skill and attention to do. Loot scaling sucked the fun out of farming and lead many people to lose interest in the game.
I don't remeber the last time I solo farmed, prolly back before they put the DN in UW more than 2.5 years ago. It used to be fun and profitable. I think people who want to experience and benefit from solo farming should be given the chance to do so.
Some of us used to enjoy solo farming. Some farm areas require skill and attention to do. Loot scaling sucked the fun out of farming and lead many people to lose interest in the game.
I don't remeber the last time I solo farmed, prolly back before they put the DN in UW more than 2.5 years ago. It used to be fun and profitable. I think people who want to experience and benefit from solo farming should be given the chance to do so.
Lem
How did it suck the fun out of farming, the number of things not affected by loot scaling means you can still farm for golds etc. In fact I did some raptor farming this weekend with the st pats items, and I got tons of drops (not counting clovers and ales), the average was about 1 gold item per run (approx 30 kills a run) which isn't bad really, not to mention tons of dye, a load of tomes and more.
Eldin
The economy WAS in good condition before LS.
Everything was much more expensive (ectos and all), with some exceptions (I believe black dye used to be cheaper) BUT...
We already spoke about how Loot Scaling lessens the amount of drops you can get period. We can generally agree on that. In turn the total amount of money in the economy is less, yet prices of things do not decline in relation to it, they remain the same due to factors which avoid the money drop (bots and all).
If we kill LS, more stuff drops.
If more stuff drops, people get richer.
If people get richer, people can get more shiny armors and weapons.
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Also, solo farming was a lot more enjoyable back then. I remember Ettin farming as an example:
I'd run out of Beetletun w/ Storm Chaser, on the edge of my seat as the Tengu degen me as I pass by. I set my traps, pull the Ettins, and get ready.
I was a crappy trapper at the time and so the Ettins continued to fight - I'd dash back, fire at them, continue to fire arrows until they dropped, hit unguent, run around, put down more traps for his still-living buddy.
I'd enjoy this for some time, then I'd explore the area admiring the scenery as I ID'd my plentiful pauldrons and runes which actually were worth something back then.
Nowadays there is no leisure like this in farming.
Also this will NOT make it overly easy for people to get rich. Once again, there WAS still a line between rich and poor players pre-LS, there is no reason for that line not to return should we implement LS. Obviously if you are going to sit around and do nothing you won't make much money regardless of LS, and even with LS you STILL need to put some effort to make money - but you can make it faster than you can nowadays.
Everything was much more expensive (ectos and all), with some exceptions (I believe black dye used to be cheaper) BUT...
We already spoke about how Loot Scaling lessens the amount of drops you can get period. We can generally agree on that. In turn the total amount of money in the economy is less, yet prices of things do not decline in relation to it, they remain the same due to factors which avoid the money drop (bots and all).
If we kill LS, more stuff drops.
If more stuff drops, people get richer.
If people get richer, people can get more shiny armors and weapons.
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Also, solo farming was a lot more enjoyable back then. I remember Ettin farming as an example:
I'd run out of Beetletun w/ Storm Chaser, on the edge of my seat as the Tengu degen me as I pass by. I set my traps, pull the Ettins, and get ready.
I was a crappy trapper at the time and so the Ettins continued to fight - I'd dash back, fire at them, continue to fire arrows until they dropped, hit unguent, run around, put down more traps for his still-living buddy.
I'd enjoy this for some time, then I'd explore the area admiring the scenery as I ID'd my plentiful pauldrons and runes which actually were worth something back then.
Nowadays there is no leisure like this in farming.
Also this will NOT make it overly easy for people to get rich. Once again, there WAS still a line between rich and poor players pre-LS, there is no reason for that line not to return should we implement LS. Obviously if you are going to sit around and do nothing you won't make much money regardless of LS, and even with LS you STILL need to put some effort to make money - but you can make it faster than you can nowadays.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by creelie
Has IDS actually been statistically proven to exist? Link me to numbers or STFU.
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