The game without lootscaling:
Everyone copying a halfway decent farmbuild from PvXwiki will make 50k per hour. It will be too damn easy to create gold. Yes, I mean to say create, by which I mean the gold is added to the economy out the bottomless pockets of the merchants. These people won't know what to do with all this gold, they will be able to afford more fixed price goods than they have use for. They will have to deal with their overflowing storage by investing. They'll pick rare materials, most likely ectoplasm.
Demand for ectoplasm (or other gold-proxy materials) will skyrocket, as will its price. We'll be back where we were 2.5 years ago, except prices will probably be even higher because without lootscaling, we'd be able to create far, far, FAR more money in the same time than in the Prophecies-only days. Given time, every commodity governed by traders (dyes, rare materials) will see their prices increased immensely.
The end result will be that non-farmers will still make the same amount of money and have even less access to anything that doesn't have a fixed price, while farmers will have a lot of wealth that gives them almost unlimited access to fixed-price goods but doesn't mean squat when it comes to the insanely inflated player economy.
People will complain bitterly and leave the game in droves.
Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?
Gli
DarkGanni
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Ok, there seems to be some confusion about what will happen if LS is lifted. Let's consider the effects one item at a time.
Fixed price items (from a merchant) will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the given amount of money. Collector weapons and armor will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the collectable drops. Common crafting materials will become effectively cheaper because the inflation of money is offset by greater production of materials. Standard armor, weapons and consumables will become effectively cheaper (a combination of fixed price and common materials effects). Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops). Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them. Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them. People with lots of actual money will become relatively poorer in comparison to other players. People with lots of ecto will stay as rich as before relative to other players. Poor people will have better chances at becoming rich people. All things considered, heck /signed. |
/Signed definitely
mr_groovy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Fixed price items (from a merchant) will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the given amount of money.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Collector weapons and armor will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the collectable drops.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Common crafting materials will become effectively cheaper because the inflation of money is offset by greater production of materials.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Standard armor, weapons and consumables will become effectively cheaper (a combination of fixed price and common materials effects).
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops).
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
People with lots of actual money will become relatively poorer in comparison to other players.
People with lots of ecto will stay as rich as before relative to other players. Poor people will have better chances at becoming rich people. All things considered, heck /signed. |
As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too.
Gli
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too.
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mr_groovy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gli
The game without lootscaling:
Everyone copying a halfway decent farmbuild from PvXwiki will make 50k per hour. It will be too damn easy to create gold. Yes, I mean to say create, by which I mean the gold is added to the economy out the bottomless pockets of the merchants. These people won't know what to do with all this gold, they will be able to afford more fixed price goods than they have use for. They will have to deal with their overflowing storage by investing. They'll pick rare materials, most likely ectoplasm. Demand for ectoplasm (or other gold-proxy materials) will skyrocket, as will its price. We'll be back where we were 2.5 years ago, except prices will probably be even higher because without lootscaling, we'd be able to create far, far, FAR more money in the same time than in the Prophecies-only days. Given time, every commodity governed by traders (dyes, rare materials) will see their prices increased immensely. The end result will be that non-farmers will still make the same amount of money and have even less access to anything that doesn't have a fixed price, while farmers will have a lot of wealth that gives them almost unlimited access to fixed-price goods but doesn't mean squat when it comes to the insanely inflated player economy. People will complain bitterly and leave the game in droves. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gli
Again, that has nothing to do with lootscaling.
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arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Fixed it for you Arcanemacabre.
As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
This has everything to do with Lootscaling as before Lootscaling / hardmode it din't exist.
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Jongo River
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
By solo farming.
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To me, playing the game 4-man was better than hardmode. The rewards were consistent (vanquishing is highly variable) and the moderate increase in difficulty didn't force things to a snails pace (like hard mode often does).
I'd love to see an end to loot scaling.
/signed
Gli
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
This has everything to do with Lootscaling as before Lootscaling / hardmode it din't exist.
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Davros Uitar
/ not signed - loot scaling should have been in the game from the get go. Sure it took them a long time to fix it, but they do get these things right eventually.
reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
All things considered, the only people who will benefit from the removal of LS are solo farmers. Well, that and your common materials argument. Everything else is a negative for those who don't solo farm. Convince me otherwise, or I'm afraid I will remain /notsigned.
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Well, then go on and solo farm. It's not like you die if you solo farm.
Fact is that nobody benefits from the current situation. If the Lootscaling gets removed, you at least have the choice to kill some trolls for some cash.
It's not negative for those who don't solo farm. If you don't farm, you shouldn't expect to fill your storage with cash either.
It's not like farming is a sin or something, I can't see why people are so against it. Some people say that farming even once makes you a mindless drone that doesn't enjoy the game and only wants stacks full of ecto's.
I can see no reason why the Loot Scaling should be here, and the only people that have a reason to defend it are the rich people that have so much pride that they don't want others to get some vanity.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jongo River
Ummm... surely I can't be the only person who routinely dropped down to a 4-man team before loot scaling?
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EDIT:
I want to make it clear that I have nothing against farmers at all. I realize that it's a playstyle choice, and that some people actually have fun with it. I do have a problem with farmers making way more money than average people playing the game, and even those doing high-end areas, for completely mindless button-mashing. As LS is now, a solo farmer will still make more than an average player [thanks to the exemptions], but not astronomically more like it was before. It's much more balanced - you get what you work for. People just always want more.
mr_groovy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gli
If it happens solo as well as in a full party, it has nothing to do with lootscaling, because lootscaling is defined as the effect that adjusts the amount of non-special drops based upon the size of the party. Tomes didn't exist either before lootscaling / hardmode. By your reasoning they would also be a consequence of lootscaling.
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).IDS was introduced with the LS + HM update. And because IDS cuts down your drops significantely, I can make no other conclusion that it is a sub routine of the LS. So yeah:
Code:
if(LS!=TRUE)
{
IDS=False;
}
It would be fine with me if:
Code:
IDS=FALSE;
LS=FALSE;
if(HM==TRUE)
{
LS=TRUE;
}
reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I seriously doubt that even before loot scaling a 4-man team could 'farm' more money than an 8-man in high-end areas, and they certainly wouldn't be able to farm as much money as a solo farmer.
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Before loot scaling, solo-farming was a steady source of income. If you farmed a few minutes, you got some cash and you could actually do stuff. Nothing 'hardcore' here, just casual farming that everyone can do.
After loot scaling, people are forced to play the storyline and can't enjoy other things like opening chests, getting drunk, UW/FoW, making characters pretty etc. Before you waste your cash on keys, you first have to realise that you still need to buy a max armor so you should keep the cash. You also need stuff for heroes, so actually you shouldn't spend anything or else you'll get in trouble later.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Just keep the IDS out of the routine
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Dzan
Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?
JeniM
The only decent source of income i can see is then end chest of FOW. Sadly I don't have ~2hours to spare every night to clear FOW, let alone the time spamming for a pug. and of course i'm not active enough for one of the big guilds that do runs every night.
As far as I can see, Anet say "If your not 'elite' stay poor or GTFO of our game"
As far as I can see, Anet say "If your not 'elite' stay poor or GTFO of our game"
reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dzan
Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?
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Well there will always be SOME, but without loot scaling, bots will have a harder time selling cash (With the loot scaling gone, players can get cash themselves much quicker, so no need to buy it online).
mr_groovy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dzan
Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Myself in Topic Start
So the question now is if or when 90% of all these gold websites are removed from the game, what purpose does lootscaling still have?
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tmakinen
Just for completeness, let's consider the effect of playing style on in game options that depend on economy. Without LS
Essential commodities
Vanity items
- Fixed monetary rewards from quests and vanquishing will become less valuable.
- Campaign playing (missions + quests) will become relatively less profitable.
- Full team farming will become relatively less profitable.
- Reduced team farming will stay at about the same level of relative profitability.
- Solo farming will become relatively more profitable.
Essential commodities
- Will be equally easy to acquire through normal play whether there is LS or not.
- Will be easier to acquire through farming only if there is no LS.
Vanity items
- Will be harder to acquire through normal play if there is no LS.
- Will be easier to acquire through farming if there is no LS.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeniM
The only decent source of income i can see is then end chest of FOW. Sadly I don't have ~2hours to spare every night to clear FOW, let alone the time spamming for a pug. and of course i'm not active enough for one of the big guilds that do runs every night.
As far as I can see, Anet say "If your not 'elite' stay poor or GTFO of our game" |
Otherwise, all my money comes from vanquishing and otherwise regular joe-schmoe playing. I rarely trade (like once every couple of months), and I definitely don't farm. You know what - I'm doing just fine. I'm not rich, don't have ectos, but I've got plenty of rare skins, at least one elite armor set for each of my 9 (non-post) characters, and a nearly full HoM on my main (though not one max title).
Simply put, I don't farm because I don't have to - I don't care about wealth. If you want wealth, yeah, you may try becoming "elite" and work a little harder.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Essential commodities
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Kashrlyyk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
...
Vanity items [LIST][*]Will be harder to acquire through normal play if there is no LS. .... |
JeniM
The relative cost of "high-end" crap thats same as my forgotten sword but has a "better" skin will stay the same if LS is taken out. True those prices will raise but the set prices will stay the same, and casual players, by definition, don't care about high end stuff and just play to complete the game.
What are the odds of "completing" the game, ever, with LS? (getting all titles, filling HoM)
TH takes (using 600g keys) 6,000,000g to max
ST+Drunkard cost 100g per point so thats 1,000,000g to max
Skill Hunter costs ~285k to max (if you start buying sig caps while they are 10g or 100g whatever it starts at)
My point is how is a "casual player" supposed to raise 8,285,000 gold?? By definition they can't do FoW runs (I know I can't) and they don't have time to farm 24/7. Ahhh the answer www.247MMOgold.com
What are the odds of "completing" the game, ever, with LS? (getting all titles, filling HoM)
TH takes (using 600g keys) 6,000,000g to max
ST+Drunkard cost 100g per point so thats 1,000,000g to max
Skill Hunter costs ~285k to max (if you start buying sig caps while they are 10g or 100g whatever it starts at)
My point is how is a "casual player" supposed to raise 8,285,000 gold?? By definition they can't do FoW runs (I know I can't) and they don't have time to farm 24/7. Ahhh the answer www.247MMOgold.com
ogre_jd
Bah to the whiners who want loot scaling removed. You get more than enough money through normal play to get what you need. Hell, not including the white dye I found, I made a bit over 5k after expenses just doing Sanctum Cay (twice since I overaggroed during the first try) and farting around in Prophet's Path and the Salt Flats collecting minotaur horns & jade mandibles (Krytan's butt-ugly, but it'll hold me 'til Drok's) and opening Augury Rock, Heroes' Audience and Seeker's Passage.
Frankly, I say keep loot scaling in. Those of us who don't care about solo farming get more than enough gold to get what we need, and those who want more will go and do what ANet obviously wants you to do: find a group and be social.
And maybe if ANet sticks to its guns on this it'll help drive away the weirdos who think that way you tell how good the economy is is by how many 0's they can tack onto the end of the prices of the things they want to sell.
Frankly, I say keep loot scaling in. Those of us who don't care about solo farming get more than enough gold to get what we need, and those who want more will go and do what ANet obviously wants you to do: find a group and be social.
And maybe if ANet sticks to its guns on this it'll help drive away the weirdos who think that way you tell how good the economy is is by how many 0's they can tack onto the end of the prices of the things they want to sell.
tmakinen
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Except for weapon mods. If they got a weapon mod trader, I might start agreeing.
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When my characters were young, poor and carefree collectors were an indispensable resource for gearing up and getting stuff done. These days I couldn't bother because of the invisible Stefan camping my party roster.
Collectors exist exactly so that those who don't want to pay through their nose for decent armor and weapons can get them. Loot scaling defused the entire idea.
JeniM
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ogre_jd
what ANet obviously wants you to do: find a group and be social.
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Thats what some people need to remeber. GW's is a game. It shouldn't be a job, it shouldn't be a commitment, it should be something you can progress on with only a couple of hours a week. Sadly this is what GWs isn't. Remove LS and we have a game. Keep LS and GW stays a job/commitment/chore
R.Shayne
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeniM
My point is how is a "casual player" supposed to raise 8,285,000 gold?? By definition they can't do FoW runs (I know I can't) and they don't have time to farm 24/7. Ahhh the answer www.247MMOgold.com
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I am not affect by LS because when farming I don't even pickup whites, I do pick up the occasional blue or purple, but mainly I am after rare drops which are not effected by loot scaling. I wonder if they are affected by the scaling system that takes affect when everything dies at one time.
Solas
How did everyone survive without LS?
1 nearly a year on and everyone is managing.
its grand now.
maybe a trial weekend?
like the HoH 6 man- 8 man thing..
worth ago + we'd se the effects
1 nearly a year on and everyone is managing.
its grand now.
maybe a trial weekend?
like the HoH 6 man- 8 man thing..
worth ago + we'd se the effects
reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed
How did everyone survive without LS?
1 nearly a year on and everyone is managing. its grand now. |
I'm not managing at all. I can barely buy ID kits, salvage kits and hero weapons - let alone the other cool stuff I could buy before loot scaling came.
Sure, most people might be able to buy their basic needs, but that's about it. Without Loot Scaling, everyone can do so much more - the things that are now too expensive become open for everyone.
Before Loot Scaling it was grand, now everyone is poor, the economy is ruined and there is no real reason to keep the scaling now that bots took a kick in the teeth.
JeniM
I just noticed the thread title : Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?
Shouldn't it be RMT?
Not that it matters, just its taken 21pages for someone to mention it
Shouldn't it be RMT?
Not that it matters, just its taken 21pages for someone to mention it
Kattar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reetkever
I'm not managing at all. I can barely buy ID kits, salvage kits and hero weapons - let alone the other cool stuff I could buy before loot scaling came.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reetkever
Before Loot Scaling it was grand, now everyone is poor, the economy is ruined and there is no real reason to keep the scaling now that bots took a kick in the teeth.
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reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Katsumi
Then you're doing something wrong.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Katsumi
Ha, go talk to all the people in high end. Or are your standards of what is rich that high? If so, you may need to rethink them.
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There are also people who got stuff like rare mini-pets, which mean instant-rich for whoever gets one.
I can't see how playing the game can make one rich, cause one gets like 800 gold from doing a mission/some quests, and most of that is gone to ID Kits and Salvage Kits.
Solo farming is especially worthless now. Raptor runs only give like 1 Saurian Bone or one white Scythe per run. Of course, the first few runs there seem to be more drops, but I guess that's pure luck since A-net said they removed the farm-lock.
Mork from Ork
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Just for completeness, let's consider the effect of playing style on in game options that depend on economy. Without LS
Essential commodities
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by tmakinen
Vanity items
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I suspect they would rise in price - but that may be a good thing since prices on most rare skinned weapons have tanked, Other items, like minis, have either tanked or out of reach already anyway.
Kattar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reetkever
I can't see how playing the game can make one rich
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Not multiple sets of armor or greens for your heroes. But most of the things you need.
reetkever
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Katsumi
You're right about that, playing through the game normally won't make you rich. But it should give you money for most of the things you need.
Not multiple sets of armor or greens for your heroes. But most of the things you need. |
O Nuxtofulakas
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeniM
I just noticed the thread title : Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?
Shouldn't it be RMT? Not that it matters, just its taken 21pages for someone to mention it |
Kattar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reetkever
To buy everything you need, you need to be rich. Skills for 1K each, heroes that need skills, weapons and sometimes runes, armor for your own characters etc.
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If you wanna be the leetpwnxor at PvE with all your leetpwnxor friends, then you may need a little more money up front. Otherwise you don't. You can get through the game with beginner skills if you want. You don't have to buy everything all at once.
Ever just use henchies? I did for all of Factions. Didn't have to buy them anything.
Sypherious
Ok, I have something to say. For the people who don't farm, most of you make your money by buying and selling things in the market. Such as ectos, armbraces, rare items, etc. For example, you buy something for 10k and sell it for 15k. You just made 5k. This is called merchanting.
Now, it's the people who farm that get you the items you want to buy and sell. If LS was removed, people would farm more often and you'd be able to buy and sell a whole lot more than you did before.
My point here is: Remove LS and it will benefit merchants(above) and the farmers.
/signed.
Now, it's the people who farm that get you the items you want to buy and sell. If LS was removed, people would farm more often and you'd be able to buy and sell a whole lot more than you did before.
My point here is: Remove LS and it will benefit merchants(above) and the farmers.
/signed.
Malice Black
You can make 100k playing through the game. I've outfitted 10 heroes with money made from just playing the game. All heroes have golds/greens or collector items.
Warrior hero - Green sword from CoF = 1K
Shield purchased from NPC = 5k+materials (+30hp included -2stance inscription 1k)
Total price <10k
Heroes don't need multiple sets. Heroes don't need fancy armour, and sup vigors. Play them well and they can survive anything with basic equipment.
Warrior hero - Green sword from CoF = 1K
Shield purchased from NPC = 5k+materials (+30hp included -2stance inscription 1k)
Total price <10k
Heroes don't need multiple sets. Heroes don't need fancy armour, and sup vigors. Play them well and they can survive anything with basic equipment.
Fril Estelin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Katsumi
You're right about that, playing through the game normally won't make you rich. But it should give you money for most of the things you need.
Not multiple sets of armor or greens for your heroes. But most of the things you need. |
), etc.I'm really trying to make sense of the answers given here, but it simply does not make sense overall. There are bits and pieces that are very relevant ,and then in the middle of those things that don't seem right to me. People make hypothetis about this aspect of the game and its economy, but disagree. This is alright since we can agree to disagree, but overall it seems that this debate is too opinionated. Everyone sees the situation "from its seat", meaning only mentioning the impact it'll have on their gameplay (well not everyone), and there's no way to get a clear picture.
I personally /unsign from my initial message, but I do not "/notsigned" because I'm not convinced.
I have nothing against farming, which I do very occasionally, but it's absolutely out of the question to suggest that it is a need in the game. It shouldn't. And every player should be able to get an elite armor (which they can, so we're all good) and possibly a few others (2? 3?), given the number that are offered. And possibly a few things to hang in their HoM, but nothing too fancy. And just so we're clear, it's also out of the question to make the game easier for the lower part of the game, GW has to be challenging, but not in the sense "you have to farm for it".
SirSausage
That's indeed a hot discussion going on here. 
There are a lot of good arguments speaking for or against removing LS.
Now the only question remains:
Is Anet actually reading this topic and trying to think about a solution,
or are they just laughing at us and our constant battle of arguments?
*cough* *cough* Gaile? *cough* *cough*
There are a lot of good arguments speaking for or against removing LS.
Now the only question remains:
Is Anet actually reading this topic and trying to think about a solution,
or are they just laughing at us and our constant battle of arguments?
*cough* *cough* Gaile? *cough* *cough*