Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Ok... I believe that the majority of the people advocating loot scaling are either those who are already rich and want to keep themselves looking special compared to the average player, hence using Loot Scaling to keep the common player down; or people who use bots and so stand to benefit from Loot Scaling because Loot Scaling doesn't really inconvenience a bot but does greatly inconvenience a human farmer.
In all honesty, most of us don't really care whether loot-scaling exists or not, but it is certain that the price of items will remain cheap for a wide-range of items, and there will also be a steady of gold flowing in the market. The main problem with these anti-loot scaling arguments is that they are all based on mere greed. It's not that we care about being wealthy or what not, but we are certainly not convinced to these arguments. Like I said, if anyone on the anti-loot scaling side has an argument that's not based on mere greed, we'll consider it and may even switch sides to defend this view, but instead, you are claiming that the majority of the population on the other side of the line are just trying to maintain our wealthy status among the community. First of all, I don't even know how did you come up with that conclusion. Secondly, I don't even think being wealthy matters much at all, especially in this case, I don't believe people ever care about if another person is rich than they are. Lastly, even if this claim is true, it doesn't support your arguments, and it certainly is not relevant to my argument in the first place.

For the last time, can you point out an argument that's not based on mere greed?

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

I would say this about RTM is that those who don't have time due work,family and some social life outsdie of game would use them.Those who can power farm for hours won't use them and like power farming.

Those with real lives and have the CC and money to buy stuff would like to do this in an honest way.You never know they may help out others as well.

lunksunkunk

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Lets just face the fact that LS will stay as a integral part of the game, as much as getting skills nerfed every quarter of the year or even earlier.

As much as i would like to see the old economy brought back, since most of my items and wealth came from that "era", it wont bring back my the fun i had during that time since my guild has split, 90% of my friends list is nonexistant, and PvP was fun.

Anerf's Grind Wars lost its credibility long ago, when its Skill>Time hit the fan, and its economy shred to bits with constant exploits, tweaking, and abuse. Nightfall and GW:EN were prime examples. But like any company a business model only works if it makes money, and sadly, idealism has no place in the real world market.

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razz Thom
Just a side thought, I wonder how many of the people here who defend LS did the "Mastercard farm" and now want to keep themselves shiny above others.Definately mister casual player over a million gold guy.
Yeah, or they found a super rare mini or something. As the thread shows though 99.95% of the population isn't defensive about having wealth to themselves. People just want the game to be more accessible, less retarded, again.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
We'd also have the inflation come back, which is what anet wanted to remove from the start. The inflation, which would make it harder for true casual players to buy certain things. Which is where people start to contradict themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
And no it isn't a lie. Inflation occurs. It has in the past, which is why Anet stopped it.
GW has never had inflation. The only price problem there has ever been is when ANet introduce a new rare must have item for the first time in the game. If there was inflation in the game then how do you explain the fact that prices were lower just before the loot nerf than ever before? And with HM about to arrive, prices were only ever going to go down.

So where did you get the idea of this mythical inflation? GW maybe a fantasy game, but inflation certainly did not exist.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

In case anyone hasnt noticed, this whole thread is based on maybe 100 people signing to remove LS arguing against the same 4 or 5 people that want it to remain so that they themselves can continue buying cheap golds without putting any effort into the game.

Need I say more? Oh yea, poll please.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
GW has never had inflation. The only price problem there has ever been is when ANet introduce a new rare must have item for the first time in the game. If there was inflation in the game then how do you explain the fact that prices were lower just before the loot nerf than ever before? And with HM about to arrive, prices were only ever going to go down.

So where did you get the idea of this mythical inflation? GW maybe a fantasy game, but inflation certainly did not exist.
i was here from the start and you very obviously werent.

prices dropped like a stone after actions taken by Anet to lower prices.

inflation examples?

100k superior absorb runes
75k superior vigor
any minor rune 3k to 15k
i paid 35k for a MAJOR vigor back then and MINOR vigors were more then sup vigor is now

GUARANTEED SALVAGE/RUNE TRADER did it

sigels for a hall???.........70k and up
Anet went 3X of the sigels and the price dropped

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

They just lowered the price that the rune trader would pay for certain runes and the drop rates of absorption runes were increased quite a lot.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
i was here from the start and you very obviously werent.

prices dropped like a stone after actions taken by Anet to lower prices.

inflation examples?

100k superior absorb runes
75k superior vigor
any minor rune 3k to 15k
i paid 35k for a MAJOR vigor back then and MINOR vigors were more then sup vigor is now

GUARANTEED SALVAGE/RUNE TRADER did it

sigels for a hall???.........70k and up
Anet went 3X of the sigels and the price dropped
Yes, I remember thos prices too. But what has that got to do with INFLATION?

Now care to quote me the prices just before the loot nerf? Probably closer to this:

1K superior absorb runes (DOWN from 100K)
30k superior vigor (DOWN from 75K)
any minor rune 100g-1k (DOWN from 3k to 15k)

The key word here is DOWN! That is DEFLATION. Prices were high from the very start of GW and went down to their lowest just BEFORE the loot nerf. So what part of that lot was inflation? NONE OF IT!

Inflation was a lie, there was no inflation! Want to see inflation? Now quote the price of Minor runes compared to that just before the nerf, now quote me the cost of common materials compared to just before the loot nerf. THAT is inflation, ANet only caused inflation with the loot nerf, they removed supply of the most basic items from the game. Worst of all, they removed a lot of fun and a lot of inovation, a pretty high price to pay for a poor economical fiddle.

gg

Arv X

Arv X

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2007

Running Amok

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
Yes, I remember thos prices too. But what has that got to do with INFLATION?

Now care to quote me the prices just before the loot nerf? Probably closer to this:

1K superior absorb runes (DOWN from 100K)
30k superior vigor (DOWN from 75K)
any minor rune 100g-1k (DOWN from 3k to 15k)

The key word here is DOWN! That is DEFLATION. Prices were high from the very start of GW and went down to their lowest just BEFORE the loot nerf. So what part of that lot was inflation? NONE OF IT!

Inflation was a lie, there was no inflation! Want to see inflation? Now quote the price of Minor runes compared to that just before the nerf, now quote me the cost of common materials compared to just before the loot nerf. THAT is inflation, ANet only caused inflation with the loot nerf, they removed supply of the most basic items from the game. Worst of all, they removed a lot of fun and a lot of inovation, a pretty high price to pay for a poor economical fiddle.

gg
clearly you dont understnad what inflation and deflation actually are...

inflation: an artificially highprice due to an excess of [currency] supply

deflation: an artificially low price due to a minimal amount of [currency]

considering that a sup vigor is a mere 14k at the moment and a minor is 1.8k i would say that it is most definitely a large deflation from the time when lootscaling did not exist and many people had lots of money. Deflation is GOOD, we do not want to remove lootscaling and bring back 8k minor vigors and 30k sups, we do not want to bring back 12k Sup Death magic runes.


you complain because you think you are poor, in reality a gold coin is worth MUCH more than it was before lootscale and Anet has really helped the economy.

I'm not positive about this but i believe hard mode did not exist before lootscaling, now imagine hardmode with the crazy droprate of old. then the economy would REALLY be in trouble.

Awakener

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Australia

Templars of the Apocalypse [Zoso]

N/

I asked Gaile a few questions regarding this matter on her recent visit.
Questions + Responses were:

Q1: Gaile will there be any Adjustments to LootScaling with the new RMT policies in place.

Gaile Answer: There are not any current plans she knows of.

Q2: So, is there any possibility of the removing of LS?

Gaile Answer: I will enquire about lootscaling.

NOTE: These answers are not in the exact form they were said, just stated briefly with the main point included.

manitoba1073

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arv X
clearly you dont understnad what inflation and deflation actually are...

inflation: an artificially highprice due to an excess of [currency] supply

deflation: an artificially low price due to a minimal amount of [currency]

considering that a sup vigor is a mere 14k at the moment and a minor is 1.8k i would say that it is most definitely a large deflation from the time when lootscaling did not exist and many people had lots of money. Deflation is GOOD, we do not want to remove lootscaling and bring back 8k minor vigors and 30k sups, we do not want to bring back 12k Sup Death magic runes.


you complain because you think you are poor, in reality a gold coin is worth MUCH more than it was before lootscale and Anet has really helped the economy.

I'm not positive about this but i believe hard mode did not exist before lootscaling, now imagine hardmode with the crazy droprate of old. then the economy would REALLY be in trouble.
Its worth the exact same as it was before LS. The value of gold never changed. But thats the misconception most people have when they have multiple types of ways to buy different stuff.

HM was introduced with LS. And you want to know what would happen if LS was removed with HM still in place. The prices of nearly everything would bottom out. Plain and simple as that and only a very very few items would go up in price.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arv X
you complain because you think you are poor, in reality a gold coin is worth MUCH more than it was before lootscale and Anet has really helped the economy.
So? Our armour still costs the same as it used to. So it's considerably harder to get. IMO that's not a good economy.

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkangel921
/signed and agreed fully loot scaling is a waste now, let the players now have at least A LITTLE prosperity in the game.
Stop being a victim IMO and adapt?

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkangel921
/signed and agreed fully loot scaling is a waste now, let the players now have at least A LITTLE prosperity in the game.
Stop being a victim IMO and adapt?

Witchblade

Witchblade

Polar Bear Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

I wish those whiners had the idea of how it was before Factions^^

No rune/material traders
No Insignas
Sup Vigor/Sup Abs/30HP Pommels were at 100K
Any nice 15^50 decent weapon such as Long Sword were 80-90K+ each
Weird, though, people were farming and there were no QQ threads, even when AF Code was implemented.

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
So? Our armour still costs the same as it used to. So it's considerably harder to get. IMO that's not a good economy.
So you're saying that the high-end things are a challenge to get? And that's bad?

People... That's called good game design.

Solo farming (which is a loophole that was never intended by the designers) is BAD game design. Why can one character clear most of FoW? It's because of a LOOPHOLE. This area was designed to be a challenge for EIGHT characters, not a cakewalk for one...

Anet CLEARLY intended certain areas to be tackled by GROUPS of characters. Stop it with the "whaaaa we can't run the hardest area in the game with a single character anymore... I cant have fun now..." Do you all understand how babyish and spoiled you sound, insisting that Anet allow you to do this?

Awful, spoiled, crying children is what you sound like.

Anet's mistake was not closing the solo farming loophole sooner. They made the mistake of listening to all the crying babies on this forum b1tch up a storm every time they made incremental movements toward closer to closing the loophole. Anet should have moved swiftly and decisively as soon as they identified the problem, getting the structure of the game in line with their intent.

Mork from Ork

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by cebalrai
?

Awful, spoiled, crying children is what you sound like.
no - that is the sound of customers. Babies just spit up when they cry

Customers stop buying products when they are upset and companies fold.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Let's boycott a.net!

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
no - that is the sound of customers. Babies just spit up when they cry

Customers stop buying products when they are upset and companies fold.
"Whaaaa! I'm not going to buy any of Anet's products unless I can run the elite areas in the game with just one character.... WHAAAAA"

You're the absolute essence of what I'm talking about. Threatening to stop buying Anet's products because you can't do a stupid thing that was never intended is BABYISH. Maybe 5 year-oldish... but that's a stretch.

Xunlai Guru Agent

Xunlai Guru Agent

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade
I wish those whiners had the idea of how it was before Factions^^

No rune/material traders
No Insignas
Sup Vigor/Sup Abs/30HP Pommels were at 100K
Any nice 15^50 decent weapon such as Long Sword were 80-90K+ each
Those were the good ol'days, I wish I could go back!

OT: /sighed ^^

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

I understand that people want a reliable source of income. How about coming up with ideas for Anet to chew on that will give you better income? Why is the only idea solo farming? Why does the only idea have to do with exploiting loopholes?

It's not the only way.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arv X
clearly you dont understnad what inflation and deflation actually are...
Prices just before the loot nerf were lower than they had ever been. Explain that one away in terms of inflation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arv X
you complain because you think you are poor
Actually no, I am loaded, so don't try and tar me with the greed brush. For me this was a fun nerf. I have all the obs armour, torment weapons, rare skins and titles I want. I don't need wealth, what I need is a sense of fun, a point to inventing new builds, a point to playing the game. Post nerf there is no point, may as well ursan it like the crowd, oh what a fun game ANet has turned GW into. All there is now is title grind.

That is why I am now a casual player again, and i certainly won't go anywhere near GW2 if scaling is in place.

Angelic Upstart

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
Prices just before the loot nerf were lower than they had ever been. Explain that one away in terms of inflation.



Actually no, I am loaded, so don't try and tar me with the greed brush. For me this was a fun nerf. I have all the obs armour, torment weapons, rare skins and titles I want. I don't need wealth, what I need is a sense of fun, a point to inventing new builds, a point to playing the game. Post nerf there is no point, may as well ursan it like the crowd, oh what a fun game ANet has turned GW into. All there is now is title grind.

That is why I am now a casual player again, and i certainly won't go anywhere near GW2 if scaling is in place.
Very well put i agree totally.

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
Actually no, I am loaded, so don't try and tar me with the greed brush. For me this was a fun nerf. I have all the obs armour, torment weapons, rare skins and titles I want. I don't need wealth, what I need is a sense of fun, a point to inventing new builds, a point to playing the game. Post nerf there is no point, may as well ursan it like the crowd, oh what a fun game ANet has turned GW into. All there is now is title grind.

That is why I am now a casual player again, and i certainly won't go anywhere near GW2 if scaling is in place.
And you're really going to have so much more fun if you get a few more raven staff drops? Sounds to me like you're done with the game, lootscaling or no lootscaling.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gli
And you're really going to have so much more fun if you get a few more raven staff drops? Sounds to me like you're done with the game, lootscaling or no lootscaling.
I may well be nearly done with GW. The loot nerf did that, like it did for a lot of my friends who no longer play. The nerf sucked 90% of the replay value of GW out of the game for many (not all I admit) people. Without farmers, where is the innovation for builds? Look at the state of play now, what is it? Just Ursan runs in elite areas? What a sorry sad little game the nerf created.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
So? Our armour still costs the same as it used to. So it's considerably harder to get. IMO that's not a good economy.
no. last i checked it was 1k not 1.5k and runes/insig are dirt cheep compared to your glory farming days

before runners how long and how much of the game did you have to play to get DROKS?

DROK armor was a long term goal for a casual player.

jeff strain in a pre GW release interview stated that this is why they have the 3 tier equal armor protection policy.

DROK as a long term goal for the casual player

15K for the more dedicated player who has moretime to play but still it will be their next step up long term goal

FOW for the hardcore player who spends insane time on the game this will be their LONG TERM GOAL

they never meant 15k to be bought in a few days farming.

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
Without farmers, where is the innovation for builds? Look at the state of play now, what is it? Just Ursan runs in elite areas? What a sorry sad little game the nerf created.
You're being irrational. There are still plenty of farmers out there; have you checked the farming sub-forum? It's a busy place. People still farm for all the lovely trinkets that are on the lootscale exclusion list. I know I do, and in addition to the special drops, contrary to what some people believe, I get enough lootscaling-affected drops to pay for ID and salvage kits. Imagine that!

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

I'm amazed by the number of nostalgic replies which basically say "remove LS to bring back the old economy". There's NO WAY the former is going to bring back the latter. Given the years, the three campaigns, numerous special events/weapons/minis/etc. etc. etc. since these "good old days", it's absolutely impossible that removing LS (even if gold-sellers/RMT are out of the game) will "fix the economy" or bring GW veterans to what they were doing before. They'll farm the same way, get the same output, but the market will be so different that very soon they'll find themselves unable to sell/buy what they want.

There's an overwhelming support for removing LS, yet I'm convinced that very few people see the consequences of this decision. This is whishful thinking and the desire to go back to a certain version of the game, which is lost forever.

Removing LS may have a positive impact, but it's not clear at all. Stop the simplistic comparisons on this or that particular point, it's about an economy with thousands of players and hundreds of different things to sell and buy.

Shuuda

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

There's an overwhelming support for removing LS, yet I'm convinced that very few people see the consequences of this decision.
The Masses never do, that's why they are not incharge. (thank god)

Stolen Souls

Stolen Souls

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay Vert
GW has never had inflation.

So where did you get the idea of this mythical inflation? GW maybe a fantasy game, but inflation certainly did not exist.
You must be newer to the game. Otherwise you wouldn't have said something so wrong, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anet
This huge influx of new gold caused inflation and made it harder for casual players to afford the items they wanted.

Quote:
There's an overwhelming support for removing LS, yet I'm convinced that very few people see the consequences of this decision.
They don't. All they see is that for a while, it would get HIM more gold per run (aka...greed). They don't understand the effects it would have AS A WHOLE. That the hardcore farmers would be right back at it, exploiting their trolls and vermin, flooding the economy with new gold all over again. In fact, it's making me begin to wonder, how many of these anti-loot scaling people, are actually ex-hardcore vermin/troll farmers that just want their old source of income back, and are using the "I'm casual blah blah" stuff as a means to try to get what they want.


http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile...Feb-April_2007 ....many people it seems, still need to read the loot scaling article


As unlikely as them removing loot scaling is. If they DO decide to...we can only hope they re-impliment the scattering, kiting, anti-farm AI, to prevent the exploitable mobs from being overly exploited. Of course, then we'll surely see a QQ thread just like this one pop up..."plz plz plz remove the anti-farm ai i need to kill the mobs faster cuz i am casual i only play 15 mins a week but need FoW armorz PLZZ"

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

LoL... all this thread needs is Gaile to start breaking out Nixon quotes again and saying there's a "silent majority" that loves lootscaling...

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

"They need to remove loot-scaling, because I want "insert item name"."
"They need to remove loot-scaling, because I want to see many items dropping at the same time during "insert farm name", which is no longer profitable after loot-scaling."

Alright, I can see that no one on the anti-loot scaling side has an argument that isn't based on greed, so I'll lower my standards. Does anyone on the anti-loot scaling side has an argument that's a lot more logical that the two examples I showed above?

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

They have the "many people are posting in this thread supporting me, so the people have spoken!" argument too. Don't know if that meets your logic requirements though.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile...Feb-April_2007 ....many people it seems, still need to read the loot scaling article
It's so good, I thought people might want to read it inline with the thread:

Quote:
[Dev Update] Farming and Loot Scaling -- 20 April 2007

Some players have been concerned about the loot scaling aspect of this week's update. They wonder whether the fact that drops are scaled according to party size will substantially affect their gameplay experience and whether it will impact upon their ability to acquire wealth in the game. We asked the design team for some insight into the design of and the intent behind loot scaling, and found out a lot of interesting reasons for its implementation, including how the changes that have been a point of concern are readily addressed within the very system itself.

The bottom line is that ArenaNet's goal is to make it easier for normal players to make money while redirecting the efforts of the expert farmers to a way to continue to reap rich rewards without having a harmful effect on the overall game economy. The loot has not been scaled across the board. Instead, the loot scaling is selective, and it preserves a means for the high-end farmer to make money.

But let's hear it from the design team itself, with this latest Dev Update:

Why would ArenaNet make changes that impact solo farming?

ArenaNet understands that people enjoy playing Guild Wars in many different ways, and our goal is to make each of those ways fun and rewarding. Solo farming sometimes becomes a controversial issue because it can damage the game for other people. In those cases, ArenaNet tries to keep the game fun for everyone while still providing fun and rewarding play for solo farmers.

A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders).

That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem.

Because of the way that Guild Wars loot system worked, solo farming traditionally generated at least eight times as much new gold per participant as playing in a party did. And because solo farmers were motivated to farm only certain specific groups of easily exploitable monsters, they could often generate not just eight times as much, but 10, 20, or 30 times as much loot per hour as everyone else. Even more problematic was that the activity that they were performing was easy for professional gold farmers to automate, so if a single solo farmer could generate 20 times as much loot as the average player, then a network of ten computers running bots could generate 200 times as much loot. This huge influx of new gold caused inflation and made it harder for casual players to afford the items they wanted. In order to contain this problem, ArenaNet periodically added code to prevent monsters from being exploited, for example by adding complexity to the monster AI. But these types of changes made the game less fun for other players.

With the introduction of Hard Mode, we took a look a fresh look at normal mode to see how we could make the game friendlier for normal players. One thing we really wanted to do was to remove some of the advanced AI from normal mode -- things like monsters scattering from AoE, refusing to gather around individual characters, and fleeing or kiting players -- that we had originally introduced to contain botting. But in removing them, we needed to be sure that we weren't reintroducing exploits that would allow professional farmers to destroy the game's economy.

The answer to these problems was to somewhat scale loot according to party size, to bring the direct gold rewards from solo farming more into line with the rewards from other ways of playing the game. But we still wanted solo farmers to have an edge, since solo farming can be a fun way to play and a major reason why people engage in solo farming is to make more money. So we kept the direct gold rewards somewhat better for solo farmer than for people in parties, and then we added new loot which is very valuable to other players and which is exempt from loot scaling, so that solo farmers can farm this loot more effectively than other players and earn money by selling or trading it. Thus, our goal is that solo farmers can still earn as much money as they did before, but they'll have to earn it in different ways. Instead of looking for things to sell to merchants, solo farmers should now be looking for things to sell to traders or other players.

How does loot scaling work?

Without loot scaling, solo farmers received every loot drop, whereas people who played in a party received only a fraction of loot drops. Thus, solo farmers received up to eight times as much loot for killing the same group of monsters. With loot scaling in place, solo farmers still get more loot than people who play in parties, but the gap is less severe than it was before. It is impossible to quantify precisely how much less because it depends on the type of loot farmed and involves some randomness, but here are some rough guidelines:
  • People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling. At the same time, they will notice that normal mode is now much easier to farm, and that the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before. Thus, people who play the game primarily in parties will simply make more money than they previously did.
  • People who periodically enjoy farming solo (with no heroes or henchmen) but are casual about it are also likely to see an improvement. They'll find that solo farming is much easier than it was before, because monsters don't have the anti-farming AI that they used to have, and because the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over. Many types of builds that didn't work in the past, or that haven't been effective since the earliest days of Guild Wars, can now be used for solo farming. Thus, casual farmers will find the game much easier to farm than it was before, and that they can earn more money than before even with loot scaling in place.
  • People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling. They will earn less gold and common loot from solo farming than they did in the past. The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight. Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party. While gold and common loot are thus reduced for these players by loot scaling, certain other types of loot are completely unaffected. For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties. Thus, advanced solo farmers will find that certain types of farming are still extremely productive for them, but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before.

If ArenaNet makes it harder for players to farm, doesn't that drive players to purchase gold for cash from the professional farmers?

ArenaNet's goal is to make it easier for normal players to make money, so that they can buy the things they need without having to purchase gold for cash, and then to redirect the farming activities of the most advanced players so that the way they make money is by selling things to other players rather than by introducing a flood of new gold into the economy.

Here's how we've made it easier for normal players to make money: we removed the advanced AI behaviors from normal mode that slowed down the rate at which people could kill monsters there, we removed artificial barriers to casual farming such as certain farming builds not working or the game penalizing repeated farming of the same groups, we provided somewhat more gold and triple the number of uncommons and rares in Hard Mode, and we introduced entirely new types of loot.

Here's how we've protected the economy from a flood of new gold: advanced farmers and professionals who choose to farm for new gold (as opposed to things they can sell to other players) will only make perhaps two or three times as much gold per hour as normal players, whereas in the past they made at least eight times as much, and by finding specific exploits they sometimes made 10, 20, or 30 times as much gold per hour as normal players.

Here's how we've provided a new way for advanced players to make as much money as they did before: by introducing new items which will have a high demand from other players and thus high trade value, and then by making those items completely unaffected by loot scaling, so that solo farmers still have very effective ways to make a lot of money, but so that they make their money without hurting the game's economy.

Will ArenaNet make additional changes to the loot scaling system?

We constantly monitor the game to ensure that people are able to make good rewards for playing. Originally the list of items that were exempt from loot scaling was limited to newly introduced Hard Mode items. However, after reviewing player feedback and analyzing play logs from the past 12 hours, we've decided to make a broader range of items exempt. We want players who enjoy solo farming to have a wide variety of things that they can enjoy farming. Thus, with today's build, all of the following types of items will now be exempt from loot scaling:
  • Skill Tomes
  • Scrolls
  • Dye
  • Rare materials
  • All rare (gold colored) items
  • All unique (green) items
  • Special event items

Lest121

Lest121

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Army of Darkness

A/Mo

IMHO LS was balanced with HM............if all you people want LS removed, then all the Gold that drops in HM should be removed and returned to being truly rare, and Superior Vigors and all the other runes should go back up in Price, you want LS removed then game should go back to the way it was.....IMO LS balanced the Economy, there are items out there that cost a lot but those are vanity items, if you can't do with out a vanity item then oh well, I like the game the way it is, It's a fare trade Anet removes Loot scaling and all the Drops in HM disappear and it drops like Normal mode.

Yawgmoth

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchblade
I wish those whiners had the idea of how it was before Factions^^

No rune/material traders
No Insignas
Sup Vigor/Sup Abs/30HP Pommels were at 100K
Any nice 15^50 decent weapon such as Long Sword were 80-90K+ each
Weird, though, people were farming and there were no QQ threads, even when AF Code was implemented.
Exactly!!
100% true!
Prices were high but nobody complained!
Good old 2005.
People who couldn't afford were simply using imperfect weapons, like +14% instead of +15%, +28 instead of +30 (which makes completely no difference in PvE anyway) and were just having fun!
No QQ until when the AoE scatter update was done - that was first big whine outrage.
It's all the further updates that brought the QQ, masses of people started to be jealous or greedy, they started to demand more and more, easier and easier. And Anet served that...

GW will never be the same, good old times won't return, removing LS completely isn't the solution. It won't bring back high prices, as everything is very easy to come by anyway. Except for the very limited or truly rare goods (for example some minis, req7-8s, things that don't drop anymore, event items) which would obviously skyrocket.

Gun Pierson

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

Tx 'Fril' for the quote, I think I understand LS better now.

So if I understand it correct, a good way to get the most loot would be duo playing with a friend (+ 1 hero max) and steamroll through complete chunks of unrepeating areas in nm instead of for example solo farming raptor cave (except for event items)?

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
Exactly!!
100% true!
Prices were high but nobody complained!
Good old 2005.
People who couldn't afford were simply using imperfect weapons, like +14% instead of +15%, +28 instead of +30 (which makes completely no difference in PvE anyway) and were just having fun!
No QQ until when the AoE scatter update was done - that was first big whine outrage.
It's all the further updates that brought the QQ, masses of people started to be jealous or greedy, they started to demand more and more, easier and easier. And Anet served that...

GW will never be the same, good old times won't return, removing LS completely isn't the solution. It won't bring back high prices, as everything is very easy to come by anyway. Except for the very limited or truly rare goods (for example some minis, req7-8s, things that don't drop anymore, event items) which would obviously skyrocket.
the only peoply screaming bloody murder here were greedy epeen (most not all) farmers bitching every time Anet cut their farm subsity.

best examples were (which you did not mention) the outrage at guaranteed salvage which gutted rune prices and the rune trader which made it easy to buy/sell those now abundent runes.

second was the 3X drop rate update to crash the hoarders who kept superior absorb/vigor at 100k/75k.

soon as that was announced right here on guru hoarders were offering them in lots of 30 at a time.

keep LS

Hiero

Hiero

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
You must be newer to the game. Otherwise you wouldn't have said something so wrong, lol.
You do realize that quoting the statement made by Anet doesn't prove anything when it is the validity of that statement that is being questioned?

At the moment LS was introduced prices had been dropping steadily for months... most items cost less than half of what they once did. What is that term for a decrease in the level of prices again? A hint... it is the opposite of inflation.