Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

MarlinBackna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

[TAM]

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:20 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

/signed

1) ANet claimed this "helped the economy" when they added it. Ectos were 12k back in Prophecies, now they are down to 4-5.5k.

Blame HM for that one, not LS. LS didn't affect drop rate of ectos as they are rare materials, but in HM, ectos dropped more.

Quote:

3) Cmon ANet, you know that GW is going down the tubes, this would be a good first step to redemption.

They are making GW2.....so they already knew that.

pablo24

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

19 Mar 2008 at 19:21 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Not necessarily, and certainly not as hardcore as the High End PvEr's do.

Many casual players probably already uninstalled GW from their computer, otherwise why would they be casual players?

Eldin

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

America. How about you, commie?

Fellows of Mythgar [FOM]

R/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 19:22 - 163

To me loot scaling seems to have just broken drops in both solo AND group play.

Of course, casual players are in dispute - on one hand they may not seek epic items, on the other they may find it harder to get money without epic farmage.

How about we just agree things pwnd before Loot Scaling came out, and revert it? There is no rationality behind the economy's affect on it.

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:22 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by pablo24

Many casual players probably already uninstalled GW from their computer, otherwise why would they be casual players?

What? Just because you play something for a long period doesn't mean you're hardcore.

Also, new people come here everyday...

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:25 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by pablo24

Many casual players probably already uninstalled GW from their computer, otherwise why would they be casual players?

Because they still want to play the game from time to time?

There's absolutely no link, logically or psychosociologically, between being a casual gamer and uninstalling GW.

Completely off-topic here, this thread should not derail!

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 19:25 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Loot scaling HELPS the casual player by making the gold they have more valuable.

This is where I'm a bit confused. Before I go any farther, more valuable for what?

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

19 Mar 2008 at 19:27 - 167

signed in terms of all anti-farm deceptions.

no flagging/denial of drops over repeats/loot scaling/and no AOE anti-drop code

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:32 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This is where I'm a bit confused. Before I go any farther, more valuable for what?

For those "rarer" skins that they may want for example. Since drops are not affected in full parties, gold income remained constant for the majority of people. However, less overall gold is now entering the economy thanks to LS and the decreased drop rate for the soloistas. This has resulted in prices coming down, which for people that haven't been affected by LS is most beneficial.

creelie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Alberta

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Mo/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:35 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Groovy, I think you and I both know that Gold sellers will find ways around this.

I'd like lootscaling to be removed as well, but unless ANet with 100% certainty can remove bots/sellers it should stay in place as a necessary evil.

QFT. The new measures will cut down on the amount of sold gold floating around, making more things attainable with the proceeds of regular gameplay. But the only way it would be okay to remove loot-scaling would be if the gold-selling companies went TOTALLY belly-up and ALL their workers switched to games that were easier to cheat at. Until then, solo farming sucks for everybody and the bots have less of a stranglehold on the GW economy than they would without loot-scaling.

The Toe Tag

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2007

Covenant Of Immortals[COI]

R/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:36 - 170

Loot scale was to kill the Mass amount of Gold the bots farmed...then the gold sellers sold.
The Ip Ban is only going to get rid of the Ppl spaming in towns for gold sellers,and if they can find the farming bots.(So it will get rid of the stupid gold sellers)

All that will happen if LS is gone is start the whole thing over.Real ppl replacing Bot as farmers,Cuz im sure before LS im not the only one that could farm 100k+ in a day easy,least with LS i cant do that with solo farming.

Yall think this IP Ban is some cure all new patch agenst Gold sellers..is not.
And if you drop LS is going to make things worse.
so /Not signed

P.S. Only ppl that want loot scale gone are the greedy ppl that want fast gold with little work.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:36 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

For those "rarer" skins that they may want for example.

Are you sure that casual gamers want the "rarer" skins? I even wonder if they know which one is rare given the amount of time and resources this may need (look at the Price Check subforum!). Maybe from their guild? There may be this "social" factor, but I'm not sure if it's significant?

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:38 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Are you sure that casual gamers want the "rarer" skins? I even wonder if they know which one is rare given the amount of time and resources this may need (look at the Price Check subforum!). Maybe from their guild? There may be this "social" factor, but I'm not sure if it's significant?

OK, maybe not the best example. How about runes then? How are rune prices now compared to pre-LS?

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

19 Mar 2008 at 19:43 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

If you're out there farming solo, you're in the "high-end" of the swimming pool.

Hardly. I often farm solo and still find myself with barely any gold.

Operative 14

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Arizona, USA

[OOP] Order of the Phoenix I

19 Mar 2008 at 19:43 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You don't know (well, unless you're working at Anet and quite high in the hierarchy

)....

True, I'll rephrase that statement; "Will it be? More than incredibly likely not."

-

The natural course of a player is to want to get more gold. To get more gold it seems reasonable to farm for cash. If a player is dedicated enough to GW to actually care about the cost of items, they will figure out someplace where they can solo so that they can make cash, and at least a moderate amount of it. Otherwise they'll just get collectors weapons, 1k armor, and stop playing in four months.

Casual players farm. A casual player does not always play in groups of eight, a casual player just doesn't sit at their computer upwards of 4 hours a day vanquishing in hardmode.

That is where the disparity is. Most casual players, I'd assume as a logical extension of playing the game, would want 15k armor, or some other sort of expensive item. The problem is that when they try to farm, they either go out with henchmen, where it makes sense that they are making less, or they go out by themselves, where they don't make much in the limited time they have. Where does this lead? They either become frustrated with the game and possibly leave, or they are forced to become hardcore farmers where otherwise they would prefer not to be.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 19:47 - 175

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

For those "rarer" skins that they may want for example. Since drops are not affected in full parties, gold income remained constant for the majority of people. However, less overall gold is now entering the economy thanks to LS and the decreased drop rate for the soloistas. This has resulted in prices coming down, which for people that haven't been affected by LS is most beneficial.

And this is why I consider the situation rather complex. Those "rarer" skins don't do anything besides...be rare. I can't say 'look cooler' because not everyone has the same tastes, and it's obvious that they don't have "superior" stats. The rare weapons and armor aren't important. The "necessary" gear can be achieved by casual means. I'd be pretty much repeating myself from my earlier post, so I'll just link it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

OK, maybe not the best example. How about runes then? How are rune prices now compared to pre-LS?

The same: fluctuating. Prices changed repeatedly before and after LS, just like materials did. Celestial Sigils have gone up pretty high, though.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:50 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The same: fluctuating. Prices changed repeatedly before and after LS, just like materials did. Celestial Sigils have gone up pretty high, though.

Runes may fluctuate a bit, but they're dramatically cheaper now to buy. This is a huge benefit to the newer and casual players.

Keithark

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

Be Aggressive B E Aggressive [AGRO]

E/Me

19 Mar 2008 at 19:53 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

For those "rarer" skins that they may want for example. Since drops are not affected in full parties, gold income remained constant for the majority of people. However, less overall gold is now entering the economy thanks to LS and the decreased drop rate for the soloistas. This has resulted in prices coming down, which for people that haven't been affected by LS is most beneficial.

Sick of people saying ls is better for casual players. Yes there is less gold in the economy now so even fewer people are rich and therefore more are poor. It takes the same amount of money to buy cap sigs, skills, and armor as it did before. Yes ecto is "cheaper" but from my exp it is actually higher. before scale I could easily make 20k/hr so almost 2 ecto /hr but now I cannot make 10k/hr so cannot make almost 2 ecto/hr as I could before. Also I made a new character a while back and tried to not use anything from storage and I had to get collector armor, hi req, ugly weps and by the time I finished all 3 games I had 2 endgame green weps and sold everythig else I had and still could barely by one set of 15k armor with no runes at all on it other than the ones I salvaged from the collectors (basically no insignias) On the other hand, before LS I could have 15k armor in about 6 hrs of farming

DFrost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Ultima Thule

Legacy of Echovald [Echo]

P/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:56 - 178

I would like it if they removed it, I don't think they will though. It would be good fun to reminisce the old times and farm some ettins and imps again, this time in HM.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 19:56 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Runes may fluctuate a bit, but they're dramatically cheaper now to buy. This is a huge benefit to the newer and casual players.

Runes are not a real problem, are they? I mean, they don't require a big amount of money, surely no farming unless you gave away all the money you earned (or didn't know about selling your drops!)

I think that the casual player-tier of the GW economy is rather simple, it's a few runes, some collector or BMP weapons, a few armor and possibly minipets (that may be the example you're looking for, but LS has nothing to do with this!)

Edit: I forgot dyes! They have changed in values, but as for runes, it's no big deal is it? I think that the "madness" of rare weapons and minipets (see High End subforum of Ventari) only affects a very few people, surely not casual.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 19:57 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Runes may fluctuate a bit, but they're dramatically cheaper now to buy.

I haven't noticed much of a difference. Runes of Sup. Vigor have always been relatively random, going from 15-30k in the course of a week. Mats are still changing fairly rapidly with the exception of amber and jade (which will continue to die in price). Don't know if it's safe to comment on the insignias since they're still relatively new. Still can't make sense of the sigil situation: they were usually around 12-18k if I recall, and I just recently bought one for 26.

And I'd agree with Fril about the dyes. They go in the same camp as rare weapons since they don't put any impact on your gameplay.

netniwk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Bellgium

W/E

19 Mar 2008 at 20:01 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I haven't noticed much of a difference. Runes of Sup. Vigor have always been relatively random, going from 15-30k in the course of a week.

don't you mean 12-17k?haven't seen them at 20k+ for ages.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 20:02 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

The problem is that when they try to farm, they either go out with henchmen, where it makes sense that they are making less, or they go out by themselves, where they don't make much in the limited time they have. Where does this lead? They either become frustrated with the game and possibly leave, or they are forced to become hardcore farmers where otherwise they would prefer not to be.

My first serious experiences of farming started a few months ago and I've invested may be a dozen hours in it. I'm close to my first 100k now, all by casually playing (I'm starting to think that I'm spending more time on GWG, I have to stop!).

We should think about LS in terms of group, though it won't encourage PUGs it may bring back a little bit of fun into the game, by avoiding the "you have to spend time to get it" factor.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 20:02 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by netniwk

don't you mean 12-17k?haven't seen them at 20k+ for ages.

Sold one a couple weeks ago for 20k to the merchant, dunno how that translates to the merchant B/O.

Clobimon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 20:08 - 184

I can say one thing... If LS were removed I wouldn't buy your 15^50 Inscription for 50k then either. Nor would anyone else. The reason those and so many things are cheaper now has more to do with the veteranship of the playerbase, availability of items by playing and the lack of a real need for them than it is LS. Supply and demand. How often do 'you' buy ruins these days? I know I rarely need to buy them anymore. You have 200k in storage today, LS is removed and you have... 500k in a month. Would you buy a Victo's Axe for 100k in a month because you have 300k more? No, because you already have three of 'em and so does everyone else! When you find someone that does want to buy it they surely won't pay you 100k even if they have it - because that would be stupid.

You know, I don't really care about LS for myself. I've gotten over it long ago really. My real concern is about changes made "for the good of the game" that actually get people leaving in groves as opposed to drawing them in. Even for people that play mostly by themselves, more people ingame is better. I'm just hoping that there are more changes in the future that draw people in and keep them logging in. That's what's good for the game.

Manos Lijeros

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2008

OTM

Rt/

19 Mar 2008 at 20:08 - 185

Just curious about a few things. I understand that soloing is harder to accomplish that going out in a group of 8 people. What I don't understand is why would drops from monsters differ--meaning would you actually equip a different weapon or item because you were going to face an unknown number of opponents. The monsters aren't supposed to know whether they will face 1 opponent or 8 people. Are they?

Money is such a BIG issue with the game... I mean the drops soloists like (myself included mind you) are liked due to cash or rarity (skin or otherwise).

When you solo, the drops are not split among 8 people, the soloist gets them all (some reward over having a party of 8--but not "what it used to be"). In effect, if you got 8x what a single person in an 8-man team got, you still have some reward.

I have run up some funds, and I have to admit that when I do, I ... don't know what to do with it all... I end up giving stuff to others (alliance members or not) simply because .. "What am I going to do with it? Make another xxk?"

I guess I am now looking at why I solo rather than the rewards I get for doing so. Seems to me that I, at least, like the new solo build since I don't stick with any single solo build for very long...

With that, I guess I don't really care whether they alter the drop rates since I am not playing for drops... Yes, I do know that is odd...

Zorgy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Paris, France

[any]

W/Me

19 Mar 2008 at 20:09 - 186

"....Finally, you can make everyone happy, but you can’t make everyone happy all the time. It is risky to try to make decisions that appeal to all players equally. Don’t fall into the trap of making decisions based on what causes the least amount of pain, because this can lead to a game that is just kind of “okay” and doesn’t really excite anybody. When you have a large, active, and passionate player base, every decision you make, every change to the game, no matter how convinced you are that it makes the game strictly better, will piss someone off, and they’ll post about it, blog about it, rant to the press about it, loudly and publicly predict that this is the “beginning of the end” of your game, and send hate mail to your community and support teams. MMO developers have to have thick skins, but always remember that if one of your players is angry with you, it is because he really cares about the game, and that’s much healthier for you than apathy. Go with your instincts and make the right decision for your game..."

Who wrote this?........

Mr Jeff Strain. Who is that guy folks?

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

TyrianFury

Guest

Join Date: May 2006

UK

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 20:10 - 187

HELL YES /very much signed!!

I'm playing less and less, bored with it, and more busy in RL etc. There still a few weapons and armours I'd like to get for my characters and farming gold for all my purchases is taking ages and further putting my off the game.

Really used to enjoy grabbing my warrior and farming some minos for 10 mins to get to get some quick gold. (not the best spot I know but you get the idea.

MarlinBackna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

[TAM]

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 20:17 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgy

"... MMO developers have to have thick skins, but always remember that if one of your players is angry with you, it is because he really cares about the game, and that’s much healthier for you than apathy. Go with your instincts and make the right decision for your game..."
Who wrote this?........
Mr Jeff Strain. Who is that guy folks?
http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

Your point being....? It's not the devs that are pissing me off right now, it is the players.

The truth of the matter is, I can't see this happening. What incentive do they have? It's not like its a new feature....you guys have lived a long time without it, and it is also the truth that no one will really know how a LS-less world would affect the economy. All I can see in LS is inflation...

Firebaall

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 20:18 - 189

"lootscaling" should be removed period.

The droprate of gold items should be REDUCED though.

Ask yourself how many gold, perfect, req 9s you have in your storage that you can't sell for 1K (or any amount for that matter). More liquid cash and fewer rare items means the excitement of getting that rare drop would be back. This is something that Anet has murdered with extreme prejudice.

The short sighted management of introducing "hard mode", and "lootscaling" has destroyed a major portion of the game that outweighs PVP, and even the other aspects of PVE.

I say with confidence that there's more players looking for the next "wow" factor item than are working on rank or that next max PVE title. Even these newly added DAW items are doomed to snore-fest status after the inital excitement has run it's cycle.

So now here we are...

Anet has an opportunity to reverse their miscarriage of game balance and bring back the largest reason players will stick with guild wars until GW2 is ready. Snooze, and you lose Anet.

Cale Roughstar

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Canada

Guy In Real Life [GIRL]

W/E

19 Mar 2008 at 20:19 - 190

/signed

I enjoy solo farming, that is why I do it. I dont have very much money at the moment, but if I am not going to have fun doing something, I wont. Plain and simple.

All A-Net needs to do is read this thread to find that the overwhelming response : RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO yes!

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 20:21 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgy

MMO developers have to have thick skins, but always remember that if one of your players is angry with you, it is because he really cares about the game, and that’s much healthier for you than apathy. Go with your instincts and make the right decision for your game..."

The reason we're having the conversation, Zorgy, is determine if this would be better or worse for the game overall, much like ANet and their situation regarding if they should implement heroes or not.

I MP I

Hustler

Join Date: Nov 2006

in between GW2 servers

Mo/

19 Mar 2008 at 20:29 - 192

I was pondering about this issue and was gong to start a thread about discussing the same thing yesterday. I've got gold and haven't ever been poor more than a few times due to the fact I was lazy when it came to farming.

My stance is /signed (even though Anet likely won't do this). Lets face it, after you beat this game and done everything there is to do, what else is there besides PvP? Well for those with no interest in PvP there's farming of course. Getting nicer vanity items just for the hell of it because you can actually appeals to many people in this game.

Destiny2097

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 20:31 - 193

I used to actually enjoy farming pre LS because of the challenge (I was relatively new to farming) and the rewards. Very very nearly quit when it was first introduced, because I was a pve only player at the time. Only reason I kept going at the time was because of the exemption list and lots of gold drops in HM (but no more).

Now I only really play pvp since there is no real incentive for me to play pve with drops cut to almost nothing and dependent on how you kill monsters. Sometimes I do some ursanway (lol) when I can be bothered otherwise I don't touch pve. So get rid of LS or at least tone it down a bit and I just might logon with my pve chars again

/signed

Nightow

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]

19 Mar 2008 at 21:05 - 194

Well, it seems that a lot of people are still arguing over LS (good, not good or just plain stupid) but i think we're missing something here. This has been a hot topic ever since the day it was instated and how long has that been for? A year, a whole 365 days of nothing but criticism, complaints, arguments and debates.

I'm not sure how Anet intends to run it's business but having such a highly debated, hot button issue around for a year is not great customer service. If LS is good or not for the community is and can remain to be debated but if it continues into and beyond Guild Wars 1 (Yes, I'm looking at you GW2!) then it will only continue a downward spiral of unpleased customers and less players.

MarlinBackna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

[TAM]

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 21:20 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Well, it seems that a lot of people are still arguing over LS (good, not good or just plain stupid) but i think we're missing something here. This has been a hot topic ever since the day it was instated and how long has that been for? A year, a whole 365 days of nothing but criticism, complaints, arguments and debates.

I'm not sure how Anet intends to run it's business but having such a highly debated, hot button issue around for a year is not great customer service. If LS is good or not for the community is and can remain to be debated but if it continues into and beyond Guild Wars 1 (Yes, I'm looking at you GW2!) then it will only continue a downward spiral of unpleased customers and less players.

We must wait, unfortunately, until we eradicate the bots. Remember, the reason was dual when loot-scaling was introduced...
If they are, then we can discuss changing LS. Otherwise, the bots win, and we would want that, would we?

One thing I realized is exactly how many people really like the non-LS world. I almost feel bad for liking LS....but the problem also lies somewhere else: HM. What will happen to it (will it remain the same)? If it does, it won't change me from merchanting req 12 elemental swords, that's for sure.

There are also a lot more hot-button issues in GW than just LS, but hopefully GW2 will be made with the right perspective on how to make a game that everyone will love. Maybe that's why WoW does so well......*wonders

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 21:29 - 196

No game is perfect, and WoW is no exception ; )

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

19 Mar 2008 at 21:34 - 197

excellent point, can't argue with that logic. Would love to see a Dev chime in on this, and their stance.

/signed

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

19 Mar 2008 at 21:35 - 198

You really think 80-90% of gold sites are going to be out of business?

Eldin

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

America. How about you, commie?

Fellows of Mythgar [FOM]

R/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 21:36 - 199

The real point of Loot Scaling was to kill bots.

Since then, GW has come up with new ways to stop bots (like last night's update).

Even with all those bots, I remember the economy being in MUCH better shape back before Loot Scaling.

Sora267

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 21:39 - 200

I say no. There are quite a few farming builds that give around the same quality loot as older builds did before Loot Scaling. If loot-scaling is removed, those builds and spots will give BETTER loot (Which I don't mind, since I farm quite alot), which will in turn harm the economy with an influx of merch fodder being sold to the merchants, generating more money.