The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

That's the point.

^ This

Despite poor AI, overpowered skills, heroes, and consumables, the biggest reason PvE in GW is easy is the predictability. If you somehow find a way to remove it (random instances, etc), then PvE would very quickly prove to be quite difficult; especially HM and elite areas.

Although, Ursan would still reign supreme, since there's really no preparation involved, but at least it would be a little more understandable why it exists.

maybe this is part of the plan...

a month down the road they go "and thats why we used PvP to balance skills....." and revert the PvP/PvE skill system and /laugh.






I can dream can't I?

I don't see why all the whining in this thread exists. It's not like Guild Wars PvE is a multiplayer game anymore. Ursan Blessing saw to that long before Anet decided to separate PvE skils from PvP skills. If you want to play the game as it was intended, using a balanced group with diverse and unique skill bars, then the outposts might as well be empty. All of them. Even the ones that have multiple full districts.

So... If Guild Wars PvE is a single-player experience, why all the whining?

- They should put speed boost of 300% and godmode in the game. Finish the game in 15 minutes for those casual players out there.

But maybe Izzy is thinking like this quote suggests?

This is true, but it doesn't stop the fact it affects you due to self-gimpage.

I want higher difficulty, not stronger skills on the same two difficulties.

Only in PvP. You don't exactly "Win" PvE. It's already pitifully easy, and better AI > super ultra awesome buffed up mobs of lameness.

What have Paragons and Ursans got to do with Mesmers?

An Inspiration Mesmer wants to deal damage?
And you don't matter.

Higher difficulter would be better. As stated, DMC - It has many modes varying difficulties and you have to get better for every single one of them.

The only "I win" buttons on them games, are hacks, or cheats. Then Ursan comes along in terms of Guild Wars. It's the C-Space to Fame of PvE.

No, people make challenges in games themselves by cranking up the difficulty.

Gimping yourself is not doing that. The enemies are the same, but they're more imba depending on what you do. If you gimp yourself, it's possibly not doable, but impossible instead.

I play higher difficulties to not only extend my skill level in said game, but to have another challenge to surpass. I'm not gimping myself. But I'm making it harder while keeping what I already have.

And no, you don't even need Wiki to know these enemies.

You have the choice to go H/H, or with players.

Anyway, Avarre already won this thread.

Quoting myself!
This isn't even new. This started way back with the first PvE skills being introduced. I don't see why people are making any more of a fuss - the problem was already here, and the writing on the wall was clear: ANet was going to keep on that road.

Actually, why are they making a fuss at all? You don't have to use it! Why does anyone complain? Why does it matter if Ether Renewal is overpowered? PvE is about fun!

Oh man, this whole thing is hilarious. I don't know what more to say.

Oh wait, yes I do.


GUIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLD WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRZZZZZZZZZZ

ANerf? More like ABuff.

c wut i did thar

Fun. Oh. Yeah. Watching mindless mobs that pose no challenge is fun. Right. I think that I'll stick with 8-years old Diablo 2, thank you very much, at least there some monsters were a bit hard (end-act bosses, actually).

If I wanted to watch things die super-fast, I'd go to old ascalon NM and beat the crap out of helpless Gargoyles hitting them with a domination cane.

I tend to agree here. A couple points, however:
- The comparison between console and GW falls apart when you consider that GW can be changed, constantly. That is, the difficulty at the high end can be continually scaled upwards as the skill of the playerbase improves. Some console games like Valkyrie Profile do this by making the game harder every time you beat it. While I've often lamented the shortcut difficulty buff of simply increasing stats, in a well-designed game mechanic buffing the enemy's numbers past a certain point will force changes in player tactics beyond the scope of dealing with bigger numbers (e.g., you deal more damage, I heal more damage).
- GW is being treated as an MMO-style game that is played constantly and for extended periods. While this perception may or may not be in error - particularly considering that the fee structure is not MMO-style - it remains that difficulty/content standards are substantially different from a 20~60-hour console game. A console game that stays challenging for just 100 hours and no more is perfectly fine, because gamers don't expect to get more playtime out of it. At the end of that time, we sit back and say, "alright, I've beaten it", and we move on. GW isn't treated in nearly the same way. So while we might not have invested 1000s of hours into those console and arcade games, we didn't expect to. With GW, we fully expect 1000s of hours of play from GW - and we don't mean 1000s of hours of grind. Whether this is a reasonable expectation given the fee structure is another question. Other posters constantly repeat the tired mantra, "you get what you pay for" - GW may very well be Exhibit A in this regard.
- The low end can stay wherever it is, and thus the game will always be 'beatable'. DMC, for instance, retains its normal/easy mode as well as an unlockable 'super' character. Similarly, GW could retain its ludicrously easy 'normal' mode while continuing to scale difficulty of other modes upwards. There really is no reason why hard mode content should be accessible to everyone - isn't 'hard mode' a misnomer then? Where is the real hard mode? GW doesn't have one.
- As a multiplayer game, GW benefits from a better playerbase. A lot of anti-balance arguments inherently assume that GW is single-player. While it may effectively be such now, this treatment frankly gives up a great deal of the potential that large-scale multiplayer provides. This is one of the points I was making in the other thread with my counter-posting. Thus, while it may be possible to leave the low-end where it is, it is not to the benefit of the game to do so. Ideally, we would like to nudge everyone towards higher-end play. Imagine if GW had only competent players. What kind of difference would that make in the experience? There is a good reason for why sports clubs and other groups push hard to foster the improvement and growth of their members.

Finally, I'll say it again: give us Chimera of Intensity and eight elite skills. Anet could, in fact, have done this earlier to dumb-down PvE without introducing PvE skills and PvE/PvP balance separation - and it would have been more fun and no grind, to boot.

Should have worded it differently.
"Playing to win" in PvE would mean using the best available options which would allow you to achieve the chosen goal in the easiest manner.
That's why one'd use Ursan/Paragons and not Mesmers.
BUT if one chooses to not go with the best available option - in that case - the person isn't exactly acting as an average individual.
One's goals are then massively different then that of an average player.
And that's why one can't matter.

But that does not apply for GW.

The only way this would work is if the difficulty setting were specific to a player. If the game as a whole kept getting more and more difficult, then the game would be heavly biased towards the vets, the opposite of GW's design philosophy. Think about how unfair the 6.5 HM titles would be if those who got them done long ago can simply rest on their laurels while new aspirants have to scale a higher and higher wall. (This is already the case to an extent because of bugfixes and altered mechanics, such as removing the multiple Siege Devourer trick in the Charr lands.)

If GW did scale the difficulty per player, then it would have to do something sensible for multiplayer groups. Also, as presumably this would only be done for GW2 as GW1 is eol'd, something would have to be done about persistent zones (no HM for them at all?). The per-player difficulty should also decay because player skill decays over periods of unuse.

It is highly debatable if such a system is implementable and if it would even be worth playing.

But even then, the toggle for Hard Mode was for an increased difficulty. You didn't really click it so you can still continue to steamroll everything as you did in Normal Mode.

If you wanted it to be easy, stay in Normal Mode. Don't try and "increase the difficulty" by toggling Hard Mode, but then butcher that and run PvE skills, Consumables, or whatever.

Same thing for RA Syncronization. If you want organization, play Team Arenas and not RANDOM Arenas.


Whatever you mean by this I don't know.

Increasing difficulty > Gimping yourself.

No, you click on the HM button for semi-normal drops (instead of that shit that drops in NM) and titles.
I thought everyone knew that was the point of HM?!


Like I said in the Izzy-interview thread:
Sorry I understood the last sentence like "if you gimp yourself in GW the game becomes impossible."
My mistake.

You don't even need that stuff. [Distracting Shot] + not using skills while hexed. Warriors should all have an elemental weapon on their switch.

Still, the reason shiro was allowed to be so insanely hard to an unprepared team was that you didn't have to go through a 20 minute long mission to get to him like glint. You play him once, you wipe, you saw what he used, go back and win.

Agreed. Still playing DMC today btw.As for gimping myself, my friends think I'm crazy for preferring to play on a keyboard.

Has anyone EVER played a MMO that was actually difficult? The whole genre is normally focused on building a character, and once you get the right character/build/skills/attributes, its a walk in the park. The only time the game is difficult is when you haven't figured out the specific trick everyone else is using to beat an area.

Unfortunately Guild Wars is starting to go back to the MMO norms instead of what it was pre-nightfall.

I'm surprised nobody realised they made Ether Renewal ridiculously overpowered in threads discussing that update. I've noticed that the moment i saw that in update notes, it was the biggest *jawdrop* i had for a long time. My old number 1 favorite skill I used even after nerf (certain farming builds), I've always knew how stupidly potent and powerfull this skill is. If they gave it a fixed duration of 10 seconds it would immediately be one of the best ele elites in game, but we know how far they went.

And it's the same with Shadow Form, it was an amazing skill before this buff and they made it much better for no reason. Crazy.

I find that funny. Want to know why?

It's got "Hard Mode" and not "Better Drops Mode" on it.

"Hard Mode" implies the difficulty will be harder, and they just go and butcher it by introducing stupidly imbalanced things.

''Madness''?

''This IS Sparta!!''

(sorry couldnt help it and I cant believe noone else has yet)

It has!

12chars

You have a very odd definition of balance then. When PvE was balanced around PvP rules, PvE was MORE balanced than it is now. Take PvE away from PvP rules, and PvE is already more inbalanced than it was just a few weeks ago.

Would be the best thing Anet has ever done.

Really!? Are you seriously complaining about a PvE skill?

Is anyone forcing to use it? No.

It does not affect your gameplay at all and you are saying it's too powerful, that's ridiculous.

Don't like it? Don't use it. It's that simple.

That's funny, because it's not exactly underpowered, or balanced now is it? Ofcourse not, that would be rediculous.

Yes, and looking at a number of things.

This skill exists like this on the PvE side, and it affects you simply because it is there.

And depending on what action the majority take, it will affect you if you're willing to PuG and use normal, non-instawin buttons aswell.

And yeah, by that logic, we should keep exploits too! You don't have to use it do you?

Next it'll be "all character base attack damage increased to 1000 per hit, now you can C-space your way to victory and never have to run any skills at all!" and we'll still have a brigade of people screaming "don't like it, don't use it, this change is great for the game!"

I suspect this may be the end of Guild Wars and I. Hell, it may be the end of online games and I, considering how inevitable this kind of power creep is.

Oh, please. Are you really living in the Matrix or what?

I want a 5000000 hp character. Don't like it? Don't use it, it won't change your gameplay, right? So give it, now. Why not give 5 mln hp and 200k dmg to all people, so wanding will kill HM Duncan or Mallyx in 1 hit.

I think its you who is simple.

Reading your post says hi.

I did not say anything like that. You are talking about inherent character aspects, health and damage, something Anet would force on anyone. We are talking about one skill on one profession that you CHOOSE to use.



Tell me how this skill affects overall gameplay in PvE. Does it somehow ruin your fun?

If you are PuGing then you are playing a lottery of getting random people who do or do not know how to play. If you get an Ether Renewal Elementalist, then join another PuG or play with Guildmates or Alliancemates. If you don't want anyone using Ether Renewal, be a leader and request other teammates not to use it.

And zwei2stein, your comment really added nothing to this thread.

Hey, if you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that.

Ok, so ether renewal is a super-elite now.

Can everyone please post a build that shows how massively overpowered it is? To me it seems like an excellent support skill, but it's not going to turn an ele into a DPS machine like Ursan. Here are some OP builds:

[Glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][Aura of restoration][Protective spirit][spirit bond][shield guardian][reversal of fortune]
[Glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][aura of restoration][vigorous spirit][healing breeze][heal other][heal party][infuse health]
[Glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][aura of restoration][air attunement][blinding flash][lightning orb][lightning hammer]
[Glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][aura of restoration][order of pain][vampiric gaze][dark fury][awaken the blood]
[Glyph of swiftness][Ether renewal][aura of restoration][illusion of weakness][conjure nightmare][conjure phantasm]

Is there something I'm missing?

edit: added the swiftness for 100% uptime

Well, now we have "The Four Imbas".

Imbagon: For extremely strong passive defense! Buttonmashable too!

Ursan: For extremely strong spike power, knocklocks and extra defense layers! Buttonmashable!

Ether Renewal: For extreme flexibility! Can run any caster! Buttonmashable!

Soul Reaping: For extreme flexibility! Can run any caster! Buttonmashable!

Aaaaaaaaaaand in the left corner, Shadow Form! Superfarm except in very few areas!

No. I would use this Glyph of Swiftness in your builds to keep it up some more, but in general that's it.
Ether Renewal rocks much more for healing/support builds than for damage.

In the big picture there are still better ways to make this game easy as hell and smoke the mobs.

I think people are more moaning about the general downtrend than this one skill in particular.

A skill that does 10,000 damage to all enemies in the area with no cooldown or manacost is fine then? That's one skill on one profession that you can CHOOSE to use.

I'm not really against the change, just against this argument that PvE is balanced always because you don't have to use a skill.

That's an unrealistic and extreme example. And I didn't say that PvE is balanced because of the choice to use a skill. And if you want to cop out and use such a skill, that's your own perogative. I wouldn't play with someone who uses it and the game economy is already shot as it is.

....lmao at all the QQing. have ANY of you actually tried using ER in a actual combat situation rather that in the HOM or on Isle.

no really. try it and see if its really worth crying about, yes the (theoretical) numbers are impressive but the actual real use is different.

sheesh.

That's the thing - PvE never was balanced around PvP rules.
PvP rules dictate:
1. participants can have max 16 in a selected attribute
2. rules about health and energy regeneration
3. rules about attack/skill activation/movement speed
4. players can be lvl 20 max
5. rules regarding knocked downs
6. rules regarding skill behaviour - more specifically stuff like condition/hex duration, Blackout
7. players leave exploitable corpses
8. ....

PvP skills were NOT balanced in PvE. They couldn't be because they were balanced for PvP on a set of rules that don't exist in PvE.

The issue is that the imbalance that we see NOW is in favour of the player (= the players have overpowered skills at their disposal instead of underpowered ones). The fact that underpowered skills were a way to deal with shitty PvE design is irrelevant to this discussion though.

But ... the difficulty in HM IS higher.
People like you would do HM because they'd want to challenge themselves.
People who play to win - will do HM because of the better drops and the titles. Because otherwise there is NO point in doing it. Because when playing to win - you are choosing the options that make your road to victory easier.
And playing though an area in HM isn't easier.

The imbalance we see now is a DIRECT result of PvE splitting off from PvP. Remember, most of the inbalance before this split was due to PvE only skills. Whether or not PvP skills were balanced with PvE in mind is irrelevent, because PvP balance helped keep PvE more in balance than it is without PvP balance.

I PLAY HARD MODE BECAUSE OF THE BETTER DROPS. I PLAY HARD MODE BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO MAX CERTAIN TITLES. I COULD CARE LESS IF HARD MODE IS MEANT TO BE HARDER. THAT'S THE ORIGINAL REASON WHY I PLAY IT! I DON'T WANT TO "GIMP" MY DROPS. IF I WANTED A CHALLENGE I WOULD GO PVP. PVE WAS NEVER A CHALLENGE. EVERYTIME A CAMPAIGN IS RELEASED, PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF RUSHING THROUGH IT AND COMPLETING IT IN A MATTER OF DAYS (they don't have to but it's totally doable). HOW IS THAT A CHALLENGE?

/caplockoff

Strawman arguments make me laugh.

Hard Mode reaps better rewards. Everything I do in this game is about the reward at the end regardless if it's PvP or PvE. After 36 months this so-called "challenge" is nothing more then a nuisance now. Slowing the process of me getting to my reward. Sounds like I'm greedy but it's just 1 of the many reasons people still play this game.

PVP ask for a split so PVE stop crying about nerfs
PVE ask for a split coz they are crying about nerfs
Everyone hates the bear coz it makes things easy, which contradicts PVE ers wanting nerfs.

ANet splits the skills, and the QQ's roll in.

For god sake people, everyone complains about skill balance but you cant please everyone.

In pve, the majority of people arent in the top guilds who team through everything with balanced teams. Ursan allows people without time to do the hard areas, and that makes them happy.

And before people say it, I never ursan except once or twice in a norn rep run to max the title.

Now, hero hench teams are allowed SOME good skills, because now the heroes can use them. Whilst ER may be imba, there is no reason to nerf it because you still dont need to use it.

Final point,

STOP CRYING OVER EVERY SKILL CHANGE.

I feel sorry for izzy who is always dealing with crying, and the odd "nice update izzy'

I know you don't think what you said was right.... but you are none the less. This is really the best update ever, people only used the broken stuff anyways for more broken stuff give me more options as to what to play.

Ether renewal, in his pre-nerf form, was used in tombs as a smiter (combining amongst others [[draw condition], [[zealot's fire] and pre-nerf [[balthazar's aura] for serious damage, self heal and energy manegement).

It worked in PvP, of course it will work in PvE (unless you're an idiot that cannot grasp the concept).