Petition to Demand a Response from Anet on Botting
Alesa
Somebody stating their experience with botting isn't necessarily "advertising" their bot-use. I don't know how you could make such a leap. Detailing the extent of the problem is probably valuable for those of us who don't realize just how easy or widespread it is.
Rocky Raccoon
Can someone explain to me how bots hurt my game-play if: 1. I don't really care about high end items (ecto, ambrace, armor, etc). 2. I play by myself or with a few guild mates and friends. 3. I play to have fun and relax.
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by Rocky Raccoon
Can someone explain to me how bots hurt my game-play if ...
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II Lucky Charm II
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Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja
That really makes me blame the gw economy the most, I've never understood how something as over farmed as ecto could always keep such a high price or even go up do to panic. Since money can only get you so far in pve I'm more concerned about the pvp bots.
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Expect to see this bot in the next 3 weeks. Just a fore warning. I do not approve their actions just like the rest of you, but I am still friends with them because we have been playing in professional starcraft league for the past 5 years and will continue to play in league in starcraft 2. They do not know anything about this thread so just be aware, people.
Potential of this bot:
Infuse monk
- Incorporated interrupt bot to be used with power drain
- Cast channeling whenever its duration ends
- Prevent from casting when Diversion or shame is detected within earshot
- Complex algorithm to heal party members
- Automatic pre-veil and veil removal when diversion/shame landed on character
- Automatic pre-veil and veil removal on runners after snares are landed
- Automatic infuse when party members' health drop below 30% in less than 1/3 second
- etc...
Prot monk
- Target opposing melee/range heroes and prot their target
- Some functions have been mentioned in the infuse bots
There you go, Anet. Good luck. You now know what will be coming in the near future. As a supporter of justice and fairness, I believe I have done my part to help with botting issues by bringing up information and make the public and Anet aware of the bots' development. I have taken NO parts in this development whatsoever. I was only made aware of their existence after my friends brought this project up to me.
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II
My friends have almost completed a full HA monk bot (Prot and Infuse).
Expect to see this bot in the next 3 weeks. Just a fore warning. |
II Lucky Charm II
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Wait, why aren't they just using the already finished Infuse/Prot monks? I know the pathing isn't perfect, but it's already done.....
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snaek
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Originally Posted by ii lucky charm ii
Indeed, you should be concerned with pvp bots. My friends have almost completed a full HA monk bot (Prot and Infuse). I will not stop them because it is not my duty to stop them. Anet's employees are getting paid to deal with this sort of things so I will give in no effort to stop this development.
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by snaek
hey gaiz, can u program me a bot for me to use to replace the hero/henchie ai in pve??? cuz apparently anet sux at making competent ai.
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NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by talon994
So this whole thread in a nut shell...
Bots won't be stopped Lux JQ is bad Koreans have been botting HA for 5 months + now Anet doesn't care about bots Reporting gets you no where Kurzicks still boast about every win in JQ People don't like contests and who judges them People like going off topic for politics Halls will soon be held by a team of 8 bots Raptors and TopK can be farmed via bot People seem mad at Anet and at each other Grind is no good |
@Tramp
BTW, Investors Business Daily Editorial is clearly going to have a biased against regulation and government operated firms, theres no profit. Thats like saying Hackers Weekly is against banning bots. Your citation only confirms the need for more oversight. I agree with martin about government regulation of the private sector. Or more to the point the deregulation of the private sector was to blame. How does this relate to GW?
If you leave cracks in a system that are only exploitable by the smartest guys in the room(ie. enron, wallstreet, and hackers). They will be the only ones to reap the benifits by cheating the system. It totally screws the economy. The rules of supply and demand go out the window when greed and exploitation are factored into the equation. Hence, capitalism will always be flawed. And yes it affects the economy in GW. I dont think deregulating the oversight and control of ANet will catch more Bots. The opposite is true. Even with the inherent fail in monetary systems, proper regulation can keep them balanced. You cant regulate morality, but you can regulate policy.
But you are right about the moral delimma of bailouts. I remember hearing about an entire guild or alliance that was perma banned, I wanna say for a Mallyx exploit or something. Whatever the reason, do you think they would have learned a lesson if they reactivated thier accounts and gave back all thier money and armbraces? Then said, "pay us back what you cheated us out of when your ready."
The moral of the delimma boils down to failure is healthy. It teaches you that something went wrong. Speaking of Fail, havent we been deregulating for 30 years? where did that get us? If they were split up and distributed over many more banks in the first place(due to regulation), you would never run into the "too big to fail" scenerio. And thats just one example of where proper regulation could protect us all. Except technically were a plutocracy not a democracy so at this point its like writing your own rules. But that my friends is another story.
Ninja Ninja
Is there any way anet can legally do anything about the main botting websites, I know if they did manage to shut it down a new one would come but at least it would give them a reason to keep this crap to themselves and away from the main public.
Septeric
/ 2cents
i think
this thread should stay open. (hell make it a sticky until a response is given... even though i highly doubt there will be one.. for ALL the reasons.. i'm sure..)
people who bot should be allowed to talk about it in here to show as many sides as possible, while verifying the issue.
the politics should stay out if the thread if it is to be taken seriously.
why?
cause my wife and i really like guild wars.. but the current state of the game is all out of whack and not fun to play anymore.
AND since there is no official GW forums... where should a group of us get together and try to show that so many are concerned about 1 thing?
the reason i find this to be important enough to keep at.. is that this is a sure bet as to how GW2 will be... all these new botters won't wait to be botting 5 years after GW2 is out.. they will be doing it from day 1. and i have seen MMO's get destroyed within a couple months because bots ran loose from day one.. (runes of magic comes to mind)
/ end 2 cents
i think
this thread should stay open. (hell make it a sticky until a response is given... even though i highly doubt there will be one.. for ALL the reasons.. i'm sure..)
people who bot should be allowed to talk about it in here to show as many sides as possible, while verifying the issue.
the politics should stay out if the thread if it is to be taken seriously.
why?
cause my wife and i really like guild wars.. but the current state of the game is all out of whack and not fun to play anymore.
AND since there is no official GW forums... where should a group of us get together and try to show that so many are concerned about 1 thing?
the reason i find this to be important enough to keep at.. is that this is a sure bet as to how GW2 will be... all these new botters won't wait to be botting 5 years after GW2 is out.. they will be doing it from day 1. and i have seen MMO's get destroyed within a couple months because bots ran loose from day one.. (runes of magic comes to mind)
/ end 2 cents
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja
Is there any way anet can legally do anything about the main botting websites, I know if they did manage to shut it down a new one would come but at least it would give them a reason to keep this crap to themselves and away from the main public.
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Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Cute, but people actually have bots that flag/micro their heroes and henchmen. They're a pain in the butt, because you have to use specific builds, but people use them for VQ'ing with discordway.
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NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by Septeric
/ 2cents
the politics should stay out if the thread if it is to be taken seriously. why? cause my wife and i really like guild wars.. but the current state of the game is all out of whack and not fun to play anymore. AND since there is no official GW forums... where should a group of us get together and try to show that so many are concerned about 1 thing? / end 2 cents |
GW Guru may be a little stale now because there isnt any real new content, just specualtion. And I think the devs and players would rather read the gw2 guru. They are much more positive over there cuz they dont have anything to complain about yet.
Septeric
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| But I was also serious about the political analogies. |
i know how much people like reading before they respond and i hoped this thread would not be full of drama before it could be read. no more or less.
but after reading the 'Policy and morality on exploited items' thread....
AND
seeing gaile respond not once.. but 2x today in the said subject thread... i say blah! for no response in several days in this thread.
such a shame.. i really liked guild wars....
Tullzinski
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Originally Posted by Septeric
aye.. and no doubt it is valid. my point about leaving politics/solutions out, was the OP's reason for the thread was to elicit a response from a arena net rep.. as far as i could tell.
i know how much people like reading before they respond and i hoped this thread would not be full of drama before it could be read. no more or less. but after reading the 'Policy and morality on exploited items' thread.... AND seeing gaile respond not once.. but 2x today in the said subject thread... i say blah! for no response in several days in this thread. such a shame.. i really liked guild wars.... |
I would suggest that you go ahead and gather character names of those who are in obvious breach of the UA (through the use of bots) and you submit a ticket to Support or you go ahead and use "email this user" here on the wiki and send it to me. Guild names are not as helpful; character names are very helpful. I cannot promise that you'll see immediate results -- such as all those you report disappearing in a couple of hours -- but things change over time and those you report may be addressed in the future. -- Gaile 18:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Hope Anet can address it in the future...until then I do not expect to see it addressed here.
Risus
/sign big ol fancy signature
but they wont do anything
but they wont do anything
Tramp
Why not just merge this thread with the same basic thread from back in February or March? It was all pissing and moaning about the bots, pissing and moaning about the nerfs, and pissing and moaning about people pissing and moaning. The response then was silence. The response now will be silence. It's all pointless anyways. I just finished watching Steven Hawkins "In Search of the Universe" t.v. documentary, and the sun is going to expand into a red dwarf and suck us into it. Unless we get hit by an asteroid, or a gamma pulser super nova doesnt fry us with gamma rays first. So none of this really matters anyways. Not even the bots will be able to keep playing through all that.
Terrible Surgeon
/signed because im pissed as hell and im not going to take this shit lying down. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bots are going to be the last ones in the game..no humans, only bots...
DO SOMETHING ANET OR UNINSTALL!!!
DO SOMETHING ANET OR UNINSTALL!!!
lishi
It kinda pisses me of the silence from anet.
Probably they cannot do anything right now but to be fair their lack of response just give the impression "it's safe to bot", the amount of botting is increasing in the game.
I see plenty of people who even started to bot with their main account, the sad thing is that i understand why they are doing it. I feel the pull of dark side myself.
Probably they cannot do anything right now but to be fair their lack of response just give the impression "it's safe to bot", the amount of botting is increasing in the game.
I see plenty of people who even started to bot with their main account, the sad thing is that i understand why they are doing it. I feel the pull of dark side myself.
Scarlett Romanov
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Originally Posted by Fillyra
/notsigned if you really want Anet's attention open up NCsoft support tickets.
I haven't seen any bots either and they haven't been affecting my gameplay of the game. *shrug* even went to HA and looked around for 3 hours didn't see any bots. Either way I have faith in Anet that they're doing a great job and they'll get these bots even without needing to respond to this thread. :x |
Clearly you've never filed a ticket with support. Manually reporting bots gets you no where. I have done it not once, but several times with bots in FA. No bans. Those players are still playing several months after the reports.
Bots are in FA every day. Come to the Kurzick side. I can point a few out if you want to know who they are.
DigitalFear
Four days and still no response? *sigh*
Rocky Raccoon
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Originally Posted by DigitalFear
Four days and still no response? *sigh*
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Rocky Raccoon
Maybe the title has something to do with it. " Petition to Demand a Response from Anet on Botting". I know when people demand things of me I turn a deaf ear to them.
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I could have said "Petition to Sequester a Response on Botting" and it would have meant the exact same thing.
snaek
no matter what the title, anet wasn't going to respond...did you really think they would have?
Hells Fury
/signed
because i don't like ungodly things like rupting 1/2 sec spells
because i don't like ungodly things like rupting 1/2 sec spells
Nerel
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Then someone move it to another name for all I care. Again, it's a legal term used by protesters. It's not meant to be rude.
I could have said "Petition to Sequester a Response on Botting" and it would have meant the exact same thing. |
Morphy
How could anyone possibly not sign this?
/signed
/signed
Killed u man
Ironically, Gaile responded on my issue on wiki.
I'll quote it here for those who don't use wiki:
*This is not Gaile, but this is someone asking a question, posting it now because gaile replies to this question in particular
I still think Anet should release a public statement regarding these bots, because it's getting redicilous. I really didn't care that much about bots, because I've known them to be used in high end GvG for years now (Unlike the majority of ppl who believe they got created only recently: I saw interrupt bots, anti bull's bots and weaponswap bots in 2008 mAT's), but having recently HA'd, we faced an interrupt bot in about 1/5 matches. 20% doesn't seem much, but facing an interrupt bot who Powerblocks your prot on recharge, and pretty much interrupts EVERY spell of your midline caster aswell as channeling on the HB monk, the ONLY choice you have is to try and kill them before they can kill you. (You won't stay up longer than 2 minutes)
On top of that, there's 2-3 people in particular who always run the same Rt/A way with a bonder which takes forever to kill. Facing them pretty much means auto-loss (esp when rt/a way on it's on is already such a hard people to beat), which is also why you see such a large amount of Rt/A ways in HoH nowdays. (Atleast 2 out of the 4-5 guilds which occasionaly run it have a bot mesmer)
I'll quote it here for those who don't use wiki:
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Originally Posted by -- Gaile 22:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I think you've asked this question of the wrong person, and in the wrong place. But the short answer is, yes, botting is cheating, and the answer to the predicted follow-up is "Yes, we block botters daily and will continue to do so." Of course, I can predict the follow up to that will be, "Why aren't you addressing (this area) or (that bot program) or (those people)?" Please forgive me if I decline to get into specifics. Again, we block bots daily; I know this because I get the daily and weekly stats which I share with the studio and publisher in one of my reports. And truly, we intend to continue blocking bots daily and examining ways in which we can make our efforts more effective. (I apologize for what probably seems a generic response, but I am sincere in what I'm saying.)
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Originally Posted by --Lemming 22:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I understand that the support crew would be loathe to share their criteria for bot detection, but are the usage of visual inspection and common sense among them? The prevalence of interrupt botting and champ point syncing is well-documented by observer mode, yet support finds any evidence provided to be inconclusive, when taking a look would make it immediately obvious.
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Originally Posted by -- Gaile 23:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
yes and yes, but on a limited basis, as is reasonable. That is, we don't have the staffing to rotate a dozen agents into ObsMode 24/7 to watch each match, detect instances of possible botting, discuss with other crew members for confirmation, and action the accounts involved. There is some observation involved in tracking bots, yes. That is how several dozens--if not hundreds--of botters are banned in any given week. Other means are always being investigated, for as you can see with the game content itself, there's no end to what may be added, changed, or improved in the future. BTW, are you using the /report system on the botters? Is there a way to improve that system? (Aside from the obvious, "Yeah, get a dozen people on ObsMode.
 ) |
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Originally Posted by -- Gaile 00:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the tickets; I'll take a look. I agree reporting on ObsMode would be awesome. If we had a system to report, "Cheating spotted at 2:45 in the Match #11 on ObsMode now" that would be amazing. Of course, we'd still have to view, verify, discuss, confirm, and action, and all before the match falls off OM, but it could be a handy tool. I can ask about that for GW2. In the meantime, what you're doing is good -- having a team report live situations is very useful to support.
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Originally Posted by -- Gaile 04:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Guys, it occurs to me that I may have inadvertently suggested that I can help with something that I really don't have the bandwidth to personally handle. There is only one of me, and my focus is and must be on different things, for instance, on policies and procedures, on communication between developers and teams, etc., not (generally) on individual bot reports. I wish I could clone myself and spend my 8, 10, even 12 hours a day reviewing these reports. I put in a lot of volunteer (unpaid) time; I guess at 9:00 at night, I'm doing that now. But I can't make even that extra time go far enough to start reviewing individual bot reports. (And remember that skill bars and speed are not direct indictments or proof of botting; some legitimate players are good enough to look like a bot. And yes, some or many of those who look "too good to be true" are botting, I agree. My point is that a review is a time-consuming process and a light re-review won't be likely to change the outcome.
Bot reports are reviewed and tickets are answered by support team members, and only rarely would one be escalated to me. If one is, I'll get involved. But I can't offer secondary or tertiary reviews of tickets already reviewed by the team. I assure you I am interested in the subject, and I'm committed to doing what I can to resolve the overall problem, as are many others and I really am sorry that I cannot offer to assist more directly. |
On top of that, there's 2-3 people in particular who always run the same Rt/A way with a bonder which takes forever to kill. Facing them pretty much means auto-loss (esp when rt/a way on it's on is already such a hard people to beat), which is also why you see such a large amount of Rt/A ways in HoH nowdays. (Atleast 2 out of the 4-5 guilds which occasionaly run it have a bot mesmer)
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
I still think Anet should release a public statement regarding these bots, because it's getting redicilous.
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Burton2000
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
When a guild can place in the mATs with a bot program in their name and not get banned, then you know that Anet is full of shit.
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Septeric
well then...
there is the response:
Originally Posted by -- Gaile 04:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
again:
ok.. so that leaves us who to ask?!
no one it seems
there is the response:
Originally Posted by -- Gaile 04:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Quote:
| I may have inadvertently suggested that I can help with something that I really don't have the bandwidth to personally handle. There is only one of me, and my focus is and must be on different things, for instance, on policies and procedures, on communication between developers and teams, etc., not (generally) on individual bot reports |
again:
Quote:
| not (generally) on individual bot reports |
no one it seems
Coverticus
Tbh, no matter what ANet does is not going to stop the botting issue. With the skeleton crew they have to support the game, their current detection methods are not good enough/fast enough to respond to the sheer volume of bots being used.
And while they could plug the current holes in the client application to make DLL injecting harder, this still won't stop things (thanks to Windows lol). People will find ways round the blocks and it will be a never ending cycle (after all, the underlying code of the client is over 5 years old).
What is needed is both the client and server to have a radical overhaul, redesign if you wish. That is the only way to curb this properly. But this won't happen I'm afraid, so it's hardly unsurprising that ANet are keeping quiet/responding as vaguely as ever.
And while they could plug the current holes in the client application to make DLL injecting harder, this still won't stop things (thanks to Windows lol). People will find ways round the blocks and it will be a never ending cycle (after all, the underlying code of the client is over 5 years old).
What is needed is both the client and server to have a radical overhaul, redesign if you wish. That is the only way to curb this properly. But this won't happen I'm afraid, so it's hardly unsurprising that ANet are keeping quiet/responding as vaguely as ever.
Tramp
Reading Gailes comments, I totally sympathize with Gaile and the rest of the people there, even if I am really mad about everything in gw at the moment. They are adults with jobs and they are being asked to baby sit a bunch of whining and cheating and scamming teenage computer wizzes and spank them if they were naughty. There really isnt enough time in the day to catch all these scammers and lamers in kamadan let alone botters everywhere else. I am sure if I owned the business it would come down to money. Do I hire some 40k a year employees to spend 8 hours a day investigating a bunch of whiners pointing fingers at each other and other players, or do I shift those 40k a year jobs into developing the next product that our shareholders expect. One generates no future income, and the other does. So as long as the problems stay contained and at acceptable levels (games will never be 100% free of scammers/cheaters because some of these computer nerds are as good as the developers at coding etc) then I know where I would put my resources if I was running the company. That level of containment (or support) changes over time as one product is phased out and another is ready to be released. That is the history of all products at all companies. I think we just have to deal with reality and get over it. You probably have less than a dozen people on gw1 issues now if even that, and they are probably not hard core programmers. Which might explain the Testes Krewe idea which was implemented to give them zero cost input to skill changes. (Of course that, imo, resulted in the worse skill changes ever and should be reverted which would put a lot of players back at an acceptable time vs. reward ratio and increase the player base, not chase them away.) If it were me running the business, I would maintain/contain cheating to an "acceptable loss" range with the smallest amount of resources, and instead spend most of my money and time on GW2. As a player I would not necessary want that, but it is not my money to spend so it is easy to bitch and complain and make demands of other people's time and money. Despite a few dozen of us on guru complaining, 99% of the fan base are casual players and would tell us to get a life. So change me to:
/sympathetic but still pissed off at everything and everyone gw and not gw related
(I am actually thinking of not becoming a troll anymore... I must be getting weak.)
/sympathetic but still pissed off at everything and everyone gw and not gw related
(I am actually thinking of not becoming a troll anymore... I must be getting weak.)
Septeric
@Tramp
good insight.. and after peeking at one the the major botting sites this morning... i see their ranks have went up 450+ registered users since this thread was started a few days ago.
(just 1 site)
to quote a line in the aliens movie.
that's it man.. game over... game over man... game over...
good insight.. and after peeking at one the the major botting sites this morning... i see their ranks have went up 450+ registered users since this thread was started a few days ago.
(just 1 site)
to quote a line in the aliens movie.
that's it man.. game over... game over man... game over...
Greedy Gus
If you don't hold their feet to the fire, then they would never have a reason to even consider changing priorities or seeing how they can address the various problems.
Kattar
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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus
If you don't hold their feet to the fire, then they would never have a reason to even consider changing priorities or seeing how they can address the various problems.
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Greedy Gus
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Originally Posted by Kattar
How are we holding their feet to the fire?
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Ariovist Lynxkind
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Originally Posted by Septeric
well then...
there is the response: Originally Posted by -- Gaile 04:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC) again: ok.. so that leaves us who to ask?! no one it seems |
It is her job now, since she is the one that took over from Gaile as the community relations person. It isnt Gaile's job anymore so we really shouldn't be asking her.
I would suggest Lindsey too, but some people are getting pissed at the rate the WiK is coming out, so I wouldnt want to delay her any more