Was termination really appropriate?

You're missing the point, it's not a legal document - it describes the rules you have to follow to have access to the game-

You might have had a point IF YOU HAD NOT BOTTED!

Bingo.

/end thread

We aren't speaking about something equivalent to "robbery", more like stealing a chocolate egg.
Would you agree that stealing a chocolate egg should get you prison???? Or would a warning be more justified???

The thing is more why do you try to justify what you did?

Get over it, you brought it on yourself, you can only blame yourself.

It is not a matter of legality, It is about playing by the rules of the created game that you paid to get into and required to agree to comply with to play. If you get caught cheating you lose. It is their servers they can discontinue service or change it at any time for whatever reason.... and you can always buy back in if you want to play again.

sure. except that when you take the time to actually read the terms of service they state that botting is not an instant ban but puts marks (which include temp bans) on your account before more extreme action is taken on repeat offenders... ok well they dont state that but they dont say that botting deserves account termination.

i have not been banned and am not worried about a ban but i agree with his argument

so you are a cheat and a thief?

In some countries they would cut your hands off, then maybe, just maybe you would have a reason to use a bot.
I would still want your cheating handless arse banned though.

I read the article. Apparently what I read and what you read were different things because you seem to imply the article details the reasons for every account ban, which is not what I see. No-where does it say all people banned were serious botting offenders, or does it even scale the offence, it simply says they botted.

In the law, even if you get a speeding ticket you get a court hearing. Even with a simple breach of the law there are varying degrees of offences and conditions under which offence is judged. That's why we have judges, juries and courts. Not everything is black and white, something that a lot of the kids on these forums will realise as they get older.

As far as reminding people they breached the EULA, sure the first time it had value, the 100th time you are being obnoxious and unhelpful and probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. I'd also like to know that knowledge of law and warnings are different from second chances. A second chance comes from actually breaking the rules and being let go with less dramatic punishment. When you flat out ban everyone there is very little incentive for anyone to learn anything. Most of these people will just leave the community.

As far as your suggestion that I can go to support, thanks for your concern and your assumption that I was banned (which is a good indicator of your thorough thought process) but I wasn't banned. No-one I know was banned. I didn't lose anything with these bans, but I am capable of questioning whether the actions taken were the actions warranted and that's not a black and white question.

I'll repost this since we seem to have a night shift of trolls trying to justify their cheating.


Take Note Kids
This is what is called person responsibility {something that is sorely lacking these days IMO}
ALL of the people twisting and contorting to justify cheating "I only did it once" "Everyone else was doing it" " it happened along time ago so I shouldn't be punished" "I did it to help my friends" "blah blah blah" should try to learn how to do what Pugs has done here!

Because people are basically reveling in other peoples misfortune. Yea they broke the rules and yea it's fair to punish them. So do it. Don't do it and then say "Ha look at all these guys we got." And it's one thing to catch a drunk driver and send him to jail and catching a drunk driver yelling at everyone who will listen that you caught the guy then send a public service announcement about how you caught and canned this guy.

Bullsh*t.

Everyone knows that botting is a bannable offense. Everyone except knuckle dragging illiterates.

This is a thread where cheaters try to rationalize cheating and act like they're some kind of victim.

The people that they scammed in PvP? The people who can't afford what they want because the bot economy drove prices far too high? They're not victims apparently.

Only the cheaters are victims here.

???

Just about all games out there reserve the right to ban you for using thirty-party software to influence the state of play. Not just for a week or two or a month, but for life. FPS has server bans and PB bans. Other online MMOs have their hackshield set bans. Etc etc. Even if they say first offenses are a week, they always have the right to make that punishment longer.

So yea they should get termination. And the EULA's not questionable. It and aNet are pretty clearly on their intentions.

Just so you know, Anet did not intentionally create an environment in which provoked players to cheat. They were just being quiet for the past few months about them gathering information and tracking the cheaters via ip addresses. Besides, they were expecting players to abide by the rules anyway.

One of the point of view of cheaters so far:
Would you cross the street on a red light?
Would you do it if absolutely nobody was around and it would be completely safe to do so?

Now answer this:
Would you break into a house surrounded by a watchful community, with anti-burglary defenses such as alarms in place?

Would you do it if everyone in the neighborhood happened to be on vacation, and there was nobody home, nor is the alarm on and also the doors are unlocked?

you really want to go there...
There are a few more but I know you and others would use the excuse of "it doesn't say we would be banned for it". So that's why I didn't bother posting anything for 2005 and 2009 and we got 2010 yesterday in the chat window so people can't use that excuse of "I don't read the login announcements" and I am sure there will you or someone else will say "I don't see any for 2009".

Sorry it's pretty clear that botting=ban.

I am not hate filled, or stupid. You say you lost real money.. how? How many hours of entertainment did you get out of Guild Wars before you were banned? If it is anything at all like the rest, it's easily in the thousands. How much have you spent?

If you have spent $500 buying the 4 games, +char slots, +goodies (this is a high figure btw unless you owned many accounts) and spent 5000 hrs playing, you have paid $0.10/per hour of entertainment you received. I personally think that's a pretty good return.

You claim the EULA is an excuse, well, then you shouldn't have pressed that I AGREE button when you registered your account(s), because the clauses covering the use of bots has not changed (that I know of). Don't agree to something you haven't read. If you get caught breaking the rules you can't use ignorance as an excuse.

ArenaNet owns the intellectual property rights to everything contained in this game, they own the servers you play on. There is no conflict with the European laws that have been so widely flaunted in some of these threads. You own a CD (if you bought retail) that will now make a lovely coaster. You have lost nothing. Cheating is cheating, and it's against the rules. I don't believe you have never been on the wiki, or on another fansite, you are HERE and the rules have been made clear repeatedly.

I applaud Pugs Not Drugs for that post.

He knew what he was doing was wrong. But when the sh*t hit the fan, he took it on the chin, and didn't try to invent any justification for himself. And he was big enough to make that post.

I feel much more forgiving toward someone like Pugs Not Drugs, who takes responsibility for his own actions. Whereas I feel no sympathy at all for people who try to justify their crimes, or wriggle out of the consequences, when they knew full well what they were doing.

I agree on this, at the very best people in some counties would get a partial refund, there is no way any national laws can force Anet to reactivate banned accounts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoran...is_non_excusat <-

Enjoy the EULA, now that you're banned you'll have plenty of time to read it carefully and question wether botting was bannable or not.

Some folks here seem to have never heard of the concept of deterrence. Doing a mass ban and then publicly announcing you have done so is exactly what anet is trying to achieve. Deterrence.

Silently banning individual accounts without letting a soul know about it does nothing for anet where deterrence is concerned.

I mean look at the hooha this mass ban has generated, look at all the people asking in fear whether drunkbots are ok, whether texmod is acceptable to use and so on and so forth.

Mission accomplished for anet i say. Fear instilled? Check. Deterrence in place? Check. GG? For the botters, yes.

that post by Pugs Not Drugs was biggest troll post ever by the way. and all of you bought it.

o.O looks like my previous post just got owned... way to put me in my place

EDIT: ahh nno quote pyramids on the forum. well zehn you know what im talking about at least

You must be living in a cave, if you think that's the biggest troll post ever.

What's your point? Are you trying to discredit that attitude, because it ruins attempts by cheats to justify their cheating or wriggle out of punishment?

Even if that post was a troll - it doesn't matter. It exactly describes how cheats SHOULD react to their bans, if they only had the guts.

So you missed match manipulation, it's right there in first sentence. Plus I read other forums and read posts by Anet staff which have also added more information.
Yet the end result is you license is taken away. There was the x amount of warnings before a stiffer punishment.

There is no proof to say other wise so your point is moot. anyways it doesn't matter how you try to spin it, the fact remains there have been warnings all over for the past five years and it is and will always be clear if you engage in activities that the end result will get you permaband.

Most of us here have seen the same argument before they were just banned for a different reason.

Edit: And a heads up, it will be the same till the severs shut down. And the same rules will apply for GW2. you heard it here first. So be sure to ss this post so you can post it on a "I've been banned for botting in GW2 thread".

Not everyone thought highly of Robin Hood. He was, after all, an outlaw.

Just sayin.

Fear is a great teacher.

So you got banned, as I said before, take it up with Anet...we can't help you here. Admins...please, for the love of Balthazar...end this thread.

You said it before, no need to say it again. This is a dicussion about whether the termination is appropriate, not a request to be unbanned or for someone to explain the EULA to them again. People have different opinions about how the situation should be handled. Just because they disagree with your opinion doesn't mean they are wrong.

If you don't want to take part in the discussion here you are free to not post in it.

The EULA also outlines the terms of service does it not? There is no issue of that being questionable, whats more the 'legality' of EULA in Europe only gets questioned when the purchaser didn't have the opportunity to read said EULA before making the purchase...

Did you ask to see a copy of the EULA before you bought Guild Wars? Here's a hint for you, it was available on the Guild Wars website... that is to say, you can't argue that they forced the agreement on you.

You had every opportunity to read it, and more importantly you had an OBLIGATION to do so.

Again, you didn't have to buy their product... nobody forced you to buy it, nobody put a gun to your head and demanded that you agree to the EULA. More importantly, that rather standard (though crappy) portion of the EULA has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the issue of banned botters.

NCsoft is the judge,jury and executioner, if I'm not mistaken or at least so it seems. And on the issue of rules enforcement in their game, on their servers... who are you suggesting would be better placed to do such?

As for providing proof, they very well should provide evidence of your banned behavior where applicable IF YOU REQUEST IT, in the same way that they'll review their handling of your banning IF YOU REQUEST IT.


Oh, I see... you committed a virtual crime, in a virtual world to obtain virtual money? And the NCsoft response was to throw your virtual ass in the virtual pokey (slang for jail or prison).

Here's the thing, a full account costs $20-30 often enough now days, Guild Wars is pretty cheap if you want to look at the actual replacement cost of the account... tell me just how cheap do you think it is for NCsoft to actually have to deal with bots, cheats, scammers and scumbags? How cheap do you think it is for their support staff to have to review all those banned accounts that are demanding that they did nothing wrong?

Yeah, that's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing right... it costs them REAL RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING MONEY, your virtual crime isn't so 'virtual' anymore is it?

I guess I should have lived up to your expectations of being hateful... but the truth should serve well enough to illustrate how clueless you're being on the issue.

No one forced anyone to using bot , blaming Anet for them "allowing" it for so many years its wrong , you know you doing wrong when you used bot not matter how you try to explain it.

All botters enjoy you well deserved bans.

have to wait for the midnight show .... so here i am again.

You rent an apartment, sign the appropriate papers and agreements.

One of the rules or terms of renting and staying in that apartment is you cannot dirty the hallways of the apartment or be a nuisance to your neighbours, penalty is evacuation/lock out from/of the building.

You agree and you signed. You move in

You dirty the hallways, you are a continued nuisance to your neighbours, the building manager post notices after notices on the entrance, reminding you that dirtying the hallways and being a nuisance is against the agreement.

But he was lenient. He let you stay on in the apartment, one year, two years, three years, four years, five years the manager repeatedly remind you of your unacceptable behaviours, until, finally, one day no one can stand you anymore and they lock you out of the building.

and you think the building manager is at fault?

Well, that's hardly the case, not all botters are banned, Ive seen more than a few in game post ban, botting their little hearts out...

As for those that did get banned, at least some seemed to have not deserved their bans, at least if we accept they are being honest about their activities (which of course might not be the case).

Either way, the real losers here are the poor saps that have to work support at NCsoft and will be dealing with the fall out and unban requests that followed this fairly large bot banning.

BvP

Bots versus Players, no matter who wins the poor support staff loses...

You have my sympathy NCsoft support staff, I hope these next few weeks aren't too traumatic

People need somewhere to vent.If this gets closed another will take it's place.

Pretty sure the mods appreciate this.

Terminate with extreme prejudice - no problems at all with the punishments. Those at the lesser end can wail and appeal and get some limited leniancy, but for those users above 2 weeks of abuse it shoule be all over.

Eh possible. I only care because people keep comparing him to me...he boted for several hours,and admits it. I boted for <5 mins,didn't gain anything,and admit it....I see no difference there


+1 to you sir. But you're abit to forgiving...
IMO the ammount of time of the ban should be done for the ammount of things you gained,though theres no way of knowing that,so your solution maybe easier and cheaper (which is what caused this problem in the first place)



And the human players that made a tiny mistake that won't get quick answers (or answers at all) because nc is to busy with 24/7 bots.

PS: Most of guru and A-net right now

Why arbitrarily choose two weeks? Why not six weeks? Six months? A year? My point is that everyone would have a different threshold at which the punishment should be enacted. ANet doesn't have that kind of luxury, else they'd be inundated with support tickets with insufficient staffing to address them.

So, they took the easiest, most cost efficient route and just scythed them all, regardless of the amount of time invested in the bot(s).

Unfortunate for some, sure, but those are the risks associated with manipulating the system.

Is in the EULA too that you can be banned for farming raptors without using a bot.
For me the GM's are a bigger problem then the botters i never botted and got banned.
And those retard Gm's simple close it and say its final they are not making 100% sure they ban a bot.
And i am sure there are a lot more people that got banned for no reason.
Dont think any of those will buy another ncsoft game again

If I get my account back its 100% sure I'll buy GW2

If not...maybe a 70% chance I'll get it...mainly not because of NCsoft or A-net,but because of HoM...

I realize I was banned in a way that goes with the EULA,but I'm trying to negotiate with NCSoft and the replies have been slow...and for what I see on guru,even though many people seem to have my problem,NCSoft is to busy with real boters to take care of humans.

This whole post made me laugh, your so stupid. they will just come back and do it all again

It's interesting how you all keep making this analogy about murderers and all sorts of criminals to botters.

Interestingly in real life there are various levels of punishment too...right? If someone steals they get some time in jail, if someone attacks someone they might get serious time in jail, and if they kill someone they might get a lifetime sentence etc..

Now, since you like making comparisons of botters to scumbags and balh blah blah then why not consider that not everyone is on the same boat. Not everyone used a money making bot and went afk for ten hours...If someone uses bots on a daily basis and just won't quit..then BAM perma ban his ass...but if someone just tried out stupidity, out of curiousity, out of temptation etc etc ... give them the approriate time...jeez it's like you slip and fall and now your RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing evil but you never meant to slip but no one give a shit, it just happened.